mightyisobel:

racefortheironthrone:

crocordile:

Nothing can change the fact that Dany is intended as a white beauty, educated to regard Westeros as her homeland and Westerosi values as her own. This is a story about a white person who goes into a not-white not-western world with higher ideals and values than everyone she finds therein. No matter how many times a character from Essos accuses her of being a “barbarian”, that almost always comes off as highly ironic when followed by examples of creative cruelty on the behalf of those accusers. 

Daenerys is surrounded by lands and food and wine and costumes and cultures that are mostly only allowed to be exotic or gross, or both. This isn’t dependant on the actions she takes in-narrative or of the decisions she makes. GRRM makes it so that most independent decisions taken by the people she has been conquering/freeing end up badly for themselves… or well, but in a way that is, well, barbaric. Even if she doesn’t manage to save anyone, her narrative is a perfect example of a white savior narrative. It isn’t an attack on the character, far from it, but it is the way her story has been/is being written.

Is she though? Dany’s a Targaryen of the Blood of Old Valyria – and the Targaryens used that status to set themselves up as quasi-divine in Westeros. Hence why she’s taught Valyrian from such an early age, to hammer home the point that she’s descended from a higher, Essosi, civilization. 

She’s ethnically Essosi, her “white beauty” would be completely ordinary if you plonk her down on a random street in Lys, she has lived her whole life in Essos, she speaks Valyrian the common tongue of Essos – how is she not Essosi? 

In addition to crocordile’s bolded point above, some further examples of the way Dany is written as Westerosi/civilized as opposed to the Essosi:

1.  Her fear and repulsion of the Dothraki in the first chapters of AGOT.  If the Dothraki regularly participate in the local economy and maintain second homes there, then why are their cultural practices so outlandish and intimidating to her? (let’s assume for a moment that the Dothraki are more like the Mongols than they appear in the text)

2.  In ADWD Dany VII, Dany is receiving reports about the various on-going crises in Meereen and discussing how to deal with them with the Green Grace.  It’s all so confusing and insurmountable, alas, poor Harzoos.  Quentyn’s arrival is announced, she kicks out all the Meereenese, and then she settles in for a lucid and insightful political discussion with the Dornishmen.  It makes no sense for her to be more comfortable gossiping with the Westerosi strangers than with one of her primary local advisors — unless she has some affinity for Quentyn and his party that she doesn’t share with the Meereenese.

3.  Dany often is (or reports that she is) the only person observing a group of Essosi committing atrocities who is willing to curtail the violence.  Notable examples include the raid on the Lhazareen town in AGOT Dany VII, and the death matches in Daznak’s Pit in ADWD Dany IX.  

4.  Dany hears the discourse and proper names of the Dothraki, the Lhazareen, and the Masters of Slaver’s Bay, as charged with elaborate metaphor (my sun-and-stars), or unpleasantly buzzing and consonantal (“Kraznys mo Naklos”), or patently unctuous (XXD’s constant encomiums to her beauty).  Westerosi people, even when they are lying and manipulating, generally speak in plain language, with traditional word order and grammar, including outliers like old Liddle, the Ironborn raiders, and the Wildlings.  (Notable exceptions include outsiders such as the Stone Age mountain clans of the Vale, and Melisandre)

With all of these otherizing techniques that encourage the reader to identify with Dany, and to identify Dany with her plain-speaking, unspicy-food-eating, and properly-dressed Westerosi people, noting that Lys produces white slaves is totally missing the point.  

1. Dothraki isn’t the same thing as Essosi – as to why they’re strange ways, it has a lot to do with the fact that the Dothraki are culturally multi-literate; they act and dress one way in the Free Cities and another way out on the plain. Dany misses this because she’s an isolated thirteen-year old who’s undergoing culture shock. However, I don’t think we can take Dany II in isolation from the rest of the assimilation narrative she goes through.

2. I think this misinterprets the scene. Dany’s not confused by Meereenese culture and needing to communicate with Westerosi – Quentyn asks her to clear the court and she agrees. But I wouldn’t call her conversation with them to be free from awkwardness at all. 

3. Dany also often carries out violence. The revolt in Astapor, her surprise attack at Yunkai, summary judgement in Meereen. 

4. Plain speech? Yeah, because the people in King’s Landing aren’t fond of abstruse metaphors, circumlocution, double-talk, innuendo, and flowery praise…

What’s missing the point is ignoring the text. Essos is technologically and economically more advanced than Westeros, Essos is more politically and culturally sophisticated than Westeros, Essos has colonized Westeros repeatedly and never vice-versa. Assuming that Westeros is hegemonic and Essos is the colonized Other is Orientalist. 

Let’s say Aerys is less crazy (yeah, yeah, but bear with me). Rhaegar “abducts” Lyanna Stark. Then Brandon goes to the Red Keep and shouts for Rhaegar to “come out and die”. How would an intelligent king diffuse this situation, or at least keep it from spiraling into rebellion?

Given Aerys’ conflict with his oldest son, I’m honestly surprised he didn’t use the moment to gains support from the Starks et al. by disinheriting his son Rhaegar, promising to return Lyanna Stark to Robert Baratheon, and then engaging Viserys to Rhaenys to keep the Martells on-side. 

“Because he’s engaged to a Dayne? What’s Ashara’s excuse?” Any excuse GRRM might care to come up with? A Stormlands lady being a lady in waiting to the Crown Princess doesn’t seem like it would need any particular explanation. My point wasn’t that there’s no specific story elements relating to the Daynes being Dornish, just that those story elements don’t particularly seem important enough to me to be the basis for an explanation of why the Tower of Joy is in Dorne.

I think the story elements are there in the connection between Ashara and Elia of Dorne, and I would not be surprised at all if when Darkstar is tracked down to Starfall by Obara, Areo Hotah, and Ser Balon Swann, that there’s some strong clues to Jon’s birth there. 

The Undying do have the power to distract and feed off people though. That’s not false power. Soo – you think Euron’s a victim of this magic rather than a practitioner because you think he’s BR’s failed apprentice? But does that really mean he can’t use magic? Take a knight who trains his squire in both chivalry and arms. Just because the square rejects chivalry that does not mean he is incapable of becoming highly skilled in arms. There are plenty of monster knights who testify to this.

It’s not false, but it’s illusion magic, not stormsinging or dragonbinding, etc. 

I think Euron was tried and failed. At the end of the day, he couldn’t fly. 

Can you shed some light on your take on the whole R+L=J theory? What are your thoughts on the timeline with Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the rebellion? How do Ned and Ashara Dayne fit into it?

Well, R+L=J. It’s pretty clear. Timeline-wise, we learned a lot from WOIAF.

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared very close to the Tourney at Harrenhal – around 2-3 months close. Lyanna was in the area of the Gods Eye to be “abducted” because she was, in all likelihood, staying at Riverrun prepping for her brother’s wedding. Note that this timing almost certainly excludes Brandon from being Jon’s father, and probably excludes Ashara from being Jon’s mother with either Stark. 

Here’s what I think happened with Ned and Ashara – I think the two of them fell for each other and hooked up at Harrenhal (Ser Barristan wasn’t at the tent at the time and probably jumped to the same conclusion that much of the fandom did, given Brandon’s rep). At the time, as Harwin points out, both of them were unmarried and a fairly good match – he was the second son of a Great House, she was the daughter of a Lesser House and no heiress. They probably hoped that they would get married shortly, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were actually betrothed or in the process of becoming betrothed.

And then things went to shit. Lyanna disappears, Brandon hulks out, Elia’s abandoned by her husband, then Brandon’s arrested, Rickard shows up for the trial, and both of them are dead. Suddenly, Eddard is a rebel on the run for his life and Ashara is trapped on the other side, torn between her loyalty to Elia and her love for Ned. 

At some point in this process, a few things happen, and I’m not sure in what precise order they happen: 

  • Ashara Dayne is sent home when she begins to show.
  • Ned returns to the South at the head of an army.
  • Elia and her children are taken from Dragonstone to Storm’s End. This must have happened after Ashara is sent away, because Ashara is not in King’s Landing during the Sack.
  • Rhaegar reappears with the Dornish troops.  
  • Arthur Dayne reaches out to his sister for help with Lyanna’s pregnancy, and Wylla, a longtime retainer at Starfall, is sent to the Tower of Joy as midwife and nursemaid. 
  • Ned and Ashara meet for the penultimate time, Ned finds out where Lyanna has been hidden. 
  • Ned is told that he has to marry Catelyn Tully in order to fulfill the pact made by his father and keep the rebel alliance intact, and does so. 
  • Ashara, now forsaken by Ned and carrying a bastard instead of a euphemistically-premature trueborn child, suffers a miscarriage. 

Then comes the Trident, the Sack, and the lifting of the Siege of Storm’s End. His duty to Robert fulfilled, Ned is free to ride full-tilt for the Tower of Joy. He arrives, and he and his companions fight Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent. Only Ned, Howland Reed, and the servants (including Wylla) are left alive.

Ned takes Dawn back to Starfall and meets Ashara for the last time. The two of them are wracked with grief – for a lost child, for her brother, for his brother and sister and father, for the life together they cannot have. The pain and the guilt are too much for Ashara to bear, and she kills herself. 

Ned remains at Starfall – rather than blaming him, the Daynes recognize his honor, their mutual loss, and the cruelty of fate – until Jon is ready to depart. The Daynes agree to keep his secret, and help spread the story that Jon is Wylla’s son, a story that Ned repeats to Robert in King’s Landing, and probably spreads on his boat-ride back to Winterfell via the Three Sisters. 

Ned and Catelyn’s marriage, already a rocky start in which both are forced to put their family’s interests above their own personal desires, is further strained by Ned’s cover story. 

Pretend today is “find something nice to say about someone you dislike day”. What do Randall Tarly, Roose Bolton, Walter Frey, and Euron Greyjoy do well? Do they have any good attributes? How could they make it out of the series in a good position?

Randall Tarly is a good field commander.

Roose Bolton is a controlled psychopath.

Walder Frey has very active sperm.

Euron Greyjoy is very good at running political campaigns.

crocordile:

Nothing can change the fact that Dany is intended as a white beauty, educated to regard Westeros as her homeland and Westerosi values as her own. This is a story about a white person who goes into a not-white not-western world with higher ideals and values than everyone she finds therein. No matter how many times a character from Essos accuses her of being a “barbarian”, that almost always comes off as highly ironic when followed by examples of creative cruelty on the behalf of those accusers. 

Is she though? Dany’s a Targaryen of the Blood of Old Valyria – and the Targaryens used that status to set themselves up as quasi-divine in Westeros. Hence why she’s taught Valyrian from such an early age, to hammer home the point that she’s descended from a higher, Essosi, civilization. 

She’s ethnically Essosi, her “white beauty” would be completely ordinary if you plonk her down on a random street in Lys, she has lived her whole life in Essos, she speaks Valyrian the common tongue of Essos – how is she not Essosi? 

As to the Tower of Joy being in Dorne, I’m not sure that your external/real world explanation works, either. I’ve not yet seen any particularly essential story reason that the Daynes have to be Dornish. Maybe the Darkstar is going to have some indelible impact on the story, but Arthur, Ashara, and Edric would work just as well being Marcher Lords in the Stormlands, wouldn’t they?

Not really, no. If Ashara’s the daughter of a Marcher Lord, why is she BFFs and handmaiden to Elia of Dorne? 

Your essay on the first BFR and it’s lack of Starks got me thinking: What do you think was going on in the North between the Dance and Dagon Greyjoy’s rebellion? That’s 80 years and all we’ve got is Rickon Stark dying in Dorne and Cregan fighting the Dragonknight. I assume we’ll get a quick history lesson in the next D&E story, but do you have any theories about Cregan’s reign? Think the succession crisis after Rickon’s death might have sparked some kind of War of the Wolves?

Given how long he ruled, I definitely get the sense of Cregan as this incredibly imposing patriarch who you did not cross if you wanted to live. I get sort of a Peter O’Toole in the Lion in Winter vibe, heraldic animals aside, a powerful warlord, a cunning manipulator, a man with a serious weakness for women, and someone who probably drove his kids crazy playing them off against each other as they waited for the Old Man of the North to die. 

Given Cregan’s many wives and their many, many offspring, it could not have been easy to keep House Stark in line. Rickon Stark with his hill clan kin and his Manderly wife vs. the Blackwood Starks (did they ever marry? did they have ambitions to rule despite their gender? did they have the same kind of magical affinities Bloodraven had?) vs. the quarrelsome Stark Starks (seriously, it cannot have been easy living having the lusty Brandon, Jonnel One-Eye, Barthogan the Blacksword, and Edric all under the same roof). It gets even weirder when you consider that Cregan married his cousin and then both Jonnel and Edric did the same thing.  What happened to the line of Edric and Senna, which combined the Stark Starks with the Norrey Starks?

And of course the irony of all this is that despite all of this heir-making, the modern Stark line all descends from from the second son of Cregan’s fifth son, the Beron who died fighting Dagon.