I think Hoster might have gone with Benjen – after all, at the time, Benjen is heir to Winterfell. 

In Catelyn II of AGOT they talk about Brandon being a shadow between them in their marriage, there’s the way that she describes Brandon in Catelyn VII of AGOT.

And in ASOS, she describes her first impression of Ned: 

“She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion.”

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

racefortheironthrone:

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

racefortheironthrone:

That’s a fair point. Although I’d point out that the Ghiscari are also Valyrian in heritage, and have been so for several thousand years. 

*cough* Oh yes, quite.

The gods of Ghis were dead, and so too its people; these Astapori were mongrels, Ser Jorah said. Even the Ghiscari tongue was largely forgotten; the slave cities spoke the High Valyrian of their conquerors, or what they had made of it.

A “mongrel” culture, whose dialect is referred to in an incredibly unflattering way… they are not remotely Valyrian the way Dany is Valyrian, she does not see them that way and they only see her as a Westerosi.

(“Mongrel” is used to refer to the Ghiscari 5 times in ADWD. They are othered and animalized by the characters and the narrative, and it is certainly deliberate.)

Sure, they call themselves something else. But we’re also told that “the colossal pyramids and temples and homes were given over to dragonflame. The fields were sewn with salt, lime, and skulls. Many of the Ghiscari were slain, and still others were enslaved and died laboring for their conquerors.” And then the Valyrians settled their lands and occupied them for five thousand years.

And then 300-400 years ago, they made up a new culture and claimed to be the same as that old culture. Does that make them the old culture?

Of course they’re not “Old Ghis come again”, and nobody was claiming that. But they’re not ethnically or culturally Valyrian, that’s the whole point. Since you’re fond of quoting TWOIAF, note “after the Doom came to Valyria, the cities of Slaver’s Bay were able to throw off the last of the Valyrian shackles, ruling themselves in truth rather than playing at it. And what remained of the Ghiscari swiftly reestablished their trade in slaves.” They’re a mixed culture, mixed racially, but one where those families can trace back to old Ghis lineage are considered higher class. And most importantly, it’s a culture that is alien to Dany and described as alien by the narrative.

And Dany is not culturally Valyrian, she’s culturally Westerosi (her knowledge of HV does not count — is she a freeholder or a monarchist? a slaver or an abolitionist?), so even if Valyria’s influence was a strong part of the existing culture of the Slaver’s Bay cities, it’s irrelevant to the argument that “Dany is […] educated to regard Westeros as her homeland and Westerosi values as her own […and] is surrounded by lands and food and wine and costumes and cultures that are mostly only allowed to be exotic or gross, or both.”

I think they’re more Valyrian than they are anything else – and I don’t see why we should believe their claims to ancient heritage anymore than we should believe that Petrarch was actually an ancient Roman. In fact, I think it kind of works better as them being both, because then Dany’s confronting her own heritage. 

And I disagree that she’s culturally Westerosi. She’s never lived in Westeros. Her entire understanding of the place is fragmentary, second-hand, and skewed through her brother’s frenzied re-interpretation of the land he left when he was a child. She’s spent her entire life in Essos. The place where she feels at home is in Essos – the red door is not in Dorne. 

Sure, here are my reasons:

1. It’s clear from the text that Ned was strongly attracted to Ashara Dayne at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Ned’s an honorable man, but he’s someone with sexual passion and romantic desire too. And as neither he nor she was betrothed, their liaison is hardly dishonorable. 

2. I also think it feeds well into the central themes of Ned’s character – especially his being torn between honor and family, between duty and desire – and the overarching themes that GRRM is interested in (the human heart at war with itself). If Ned never felt anything for a woman before Catelyn, we don’t have the kind of conflict that we had in Catelyn’s case. In fact, wrt to the whole “promise me, Ned” thing, if Ned had nothing to do with Ashara Dayne, there’s no reason for her to exist as a red herring when you already have Wylla to perform that function. 

2a. If he did, then we have a better case of those themes at work. Ned was in love with one woman, but honor forced him to marry another. Then his desire to protect his family destroyed the woman he loved, and then poisoned his marriage. 

3. It also creates a nice parallel between Ned and Catelyn – both of them got married for the sake of their families, both of them entered into the marriage while being in love with someone else, and neither of them were in love with or particularly attracted to the other partner initially, and then grew to have more. 

4. I think it also works better to explain Ashara Dayne. If all she is to Ned is one of Brandon’s exes, why does he care about her? Why insist that her name not be mentioned, when he goes to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around? Why have there be rumors or have her in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when Lyanna is really the main point of that story? Likewise, it makes her eventual fate and Ned’s final meeting that much more meaningful – it’s a lot less tragic for her ex’s brother to kill her brother than for her lover to kill her brother. 

5. I also think it works to explain Brandon Stark’s character. It’s one thing for him to be a hot-headed horn-dog who Ned somewhat resents for being daddy’s favorite and having to live Brandon’s life for him. It’s another thing for him to be an emotionally abusive asshole who encourages his brother’s affections for Ashara Dayne only to turn around and immediately seduce her. Why would Ned build a tomb against tradition for the latter?  

Agreed. The show also got rid of a lot of the complexity wrt to the Dothraki as well by not showing their cultural multi-literacy, their integral role in the Essosi economy, the way that their values are writ into the structure of the khalasar, the complicated gender politics of khals vs. dosh khaleen, etc. 

That’s a good point. Definitely some sort of prison break.

I’m thinking more Rambo, he’s pretty far from the North right now. 

crocordile:

But it doesn’t change the fact that the reader identifies as Dany when they both are confronted with a foreign culture. Dany is civilization. It doesn’t matter how many times, in-text, she is called a barbarian. She is the conscience of a Westerosi society that, in-narrative, doesn’t break any modern taboos such as our western modern culture has, while Essosi culture has slavery, blood magic, boys being castrated, blood sports, a whole city founded on prostitution, etc. These things might happen in Westeros, but they are always seen as abominations or, well, taboos. It isn’t a mater of technology or beauty, but of cultural values. Westeros shares many of our cultural values, Essos doesn’t. The reader is meant to feel as bewildered as Dany feels. She is the voice of western morality despairing in sucessive barbaric societies, as it feels compelled to help it, but fails to do so. From a meta point of view, its structure and themes aren’t very different from Heart of Darkness or any other classic White Savior production from 200 years ago. Of course, as I had pointed out in the tags of my original post, using terms such as “white” and “brown” and “black” is reductionist, I really should be using civilizatoryesque terms, but for the sake of being more relevant to a discussion that seems to be always heating and cooling from time to time, I decided not to. I regret not being more clear on this on my original post.

It is like, I don’t know, Lawrence of Arabia (that one with Peter O’Toole). It might really be a fantastic work of acting and writing and directing, it might be a work with high technical values and cohesive plot and writing (which I don’t think Dany’s chapters always are btw), but from a meta analysis, it still falls within civilizatory-esque tropes that are ultimately harmful. The in-narrative explanations for why everything is happening as it is are irrevelant when classifying it as a White Trope narrative.

Ok, I see more what you’re getting at. However, I think this is still over-extended: I don’t think it’s the case that “Westerosi society that, in-narrative, doesn’t break any modern taboos such as our western modern culture has.” Marital rape? Monarchy and aristocracy and formalized and comprehensive legal inequality between classes? A warrior society? Trial by combat? Punishment via mutilation or beheading? The Old Way of the Iron Islands? The religious fundamentalism of the High Sparrow? 

Likewise, Essos – as long as we’re including the Free Cities – has many of our cultural values. Like republicanism, freedom of speech, religious toleration, racial diversity (at least in the case of Braavos), cosmopolitanism, bourgeois social values, and social mobility. If anything, we’re a lot closer to the Free Cities than we are to Westeros. 

So I’m not at all sure that Dany is “the voice of western morality.” If nothing else, the prevalence of modern Westerners in the fandom who decry her militarism and messianic identity, her absolute conviction in her right of blood to rule, her belief in an eye-for-an-eye summary punishment, etc etc. is evidence that that’s not the case. 

So at the end of the day, I think this particular line of metananalysis falls down, especially since it runs so counter to the actual text – is the trope on the page or in our heads? 

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

racefortheironthrone:

That’s a fair point. Although I’d point out that the Ghiscari are also Valyrian in heritage, and have been so for several thousand years. 

*cough* Oh yes, quite.

The gods of Ghis were dead, and so too its people; these Astapori were mongrels, Ser Jorah said. Even the Ghiscari tongue was largely forgotten; the slave cities spoke the High Valyrian of their conquerors, or what they had made of it.

A “mongrel” culture, whose dialect is referred to in an incredibly unflattering way… they are not remotely Valyrian the way Dany is Valyrian, she does not see them that way and they only see her as a Westerosi.

(“Mongrel” is used to refer to the Ghiscari 5 times in ADWD. They are othered and animalized by the characters and the narrative, and it is certainly deliberate.)

Sure, they call themselves something else. But we’re also told that “the colossal pyramids and temples and homes were given over to dragonflame. The fields were sewn with salt, lime, and skulls. Many of the Ghiscari were slain, and still others were enslaved and died laboring for their conquerors.” And then the Valyrians settled their lands and occupied them for five thousand years.

And then 300-400 years ago, they made up a new culture and claimed to be the same as that old culture. Does that make them the old culture?

It’s hard to tell whether Aegon was good, as dragons sort of change the equation. Likewise, hard to tell if Orys was not that good or Orys was given the shit details and had to make the best of it without dragons. 

Maegor seems to have known his business, but I have the sense that he went in for high casualty rates on both sides. 

Daemon Targaryen seems to have been pretty good.

Daeron I and Oakenfist seem to have known their business, although perhaps not their limitations. 

Fireball seems like a hell of a general.

Robert had some chops, although his invasion of the Reach was a pretty glaring error. Eddard has a good reputation, but we don’t know much about his record. Tarly’s a good field commander, but we haven’t really seen him with an independent strategic command.

Stannis and Robb are both in my top five. 

Worst: 

Argilac and Harren the Black were not that great. 

Aemond was awful. 

Balon’s an idiot. 

phamos:

mightyisobel:

racefortheironthrone:

crocordile:

Nothing can change the fact that Dany is intended as a white beauty, educated to regard Westeros as her homeland and Westerosi values as her own. This is a story about a white person who goes into a not-white not-western world with higher…

I think the problem here is that Essos is ENORMOUS. So yes, Dany grew up in Essos and comes from a family of recent Essosi heritage and speaks High Valyrian. But all her heritage and childhood experience is in the Free Cities…and actually I don’t know if it’s ever mentioned that they spent time in Norvos or Qohor. So it’s all very very very Western-Essosi, for lack of a more poetic word. So Rhoynar culture is foreign to her, Dothraki culture is foreign to her, Lhazarene culture, Ghiscari, Qartheen…saying “Dany wouldn’t look out of place in Myr” is like saying since Stalin didn’t look out of place in Moscow, he’s basically Bhutanese.

That’s a fair point. Although I’d point out that the Ghiscari are also Valyrian in heritage, and have been so for several thousand years.