No. Westeros is England down to the bones. The First Men are the Celts, the Andals are the Anglo-Saxons, Aegon/William the Conqueror and his Valyrians are the Normans, King’s Landing = London, Red Keep = Tower of London, the Wall = Hadrian’s Wall, the Dance of the Dragons = the Anarchy, the Great Council = early Parliaments, War of Five Kings = Wars of the Roses, Starks = House of York, Lannisters = House of Lancaster, etc. I could go on for literally years, but all you need to do is look up GRRM’s public statements – he’s been very clear that his inspirations come chiefly out of Medieval English history.
My meta-textual argument was that readers cannot assume the presumed political, economic, cultural, etc. hegemony of West over East in post-colonial theory, as that hegemony and its literary reflections are historically bounded in a process of imperialism and colonialism that took place gradually from the 15th through 19th centuries, and that process has not happened in Westeros. By contrast, Essos is the dominant political, cultural, economic, technological party, the one that has conquered and colonized parts of Westeros no less than four times – Westeros has never colonized Essos.
1. Trade, trade, trade. The Iron Islands should have the biggest fleet possible, and should invest in ocean-going ships that can sail west to Asshai.
2. Manufacturing. Lots of tin and iron, probably lots of coal around. Start making iron goods and selling them, rather than selling raw iron.
3. If they hadn’t fucked it up, negotiate with the North for available land.
At the risk of developing a reputation for being contrary: I would hesitate to take any of the illustrations of A World of Ice and Fire as absolutely accurate depictions of the reality of Planetos. People described by the text as having skin “the color of oiled teak” are still drawn as moon-white (Lengii female illustration on 306) the Tyrell rose is engraved on the Oakenseat of House Gardner (212), and all peoples not expressly described as ~exotic~ in the text are illustrated as white/European, (including Hyrkoon the Hero in Yi Ti on page 301).
So, despite the Worldbook illustration depicting a carrack, the text describes the Summer Islanders as people who “scorn to hug the coasts like other seafarers, but instead strike out fearlessly across the ocean deeps, far from the sight of land” (280), and their ships are “capable of carrying sufficient provisions to cross long stretches of ocean whilst withstanding even the fiercest storms at sea,” (278) so I’d say it’s a mistake to write off the Summer Islander’s ships as incapable of making a journey across the Sunset Sea based on an illustration. (It’s also worth noting that Columbus’ Santa Maria was a three-masted carrack, so even if you want to take the AWoIaF illustrations as solidly canon, I’m not sure I buy the assertion that a ship like the one illustrated couldn’t cross the Sunset Sea)
Fair point. The Summer Islander ships might make it – assuming they knew about the whole scurvy thing.
However, the Nina, Pinta, and the Santa Maria just barely made the trip to the Caribbean before starving to death. If the Americas hadn’t been there, they would have been dead long before they hit Asia.
No, I meant west to Asshai. Yes, it’s true that no one’s successfully made the trip, but look at the ships they’re sailing with – cogs, carracks, dromonds, galleys – they’re not super-big ocean-going ships.
Even the swan ships of the Summer Islands, according to their depiction
in the Worldbook (p. 279), look like three-masted carracks. If
they’re going to make it across the Sunset Sea, you’re going to need a
ship big enough to hold a lot of food and water – your proper 18th
century ship of the line. And a maester who grows lemon trees in pots.
Um, I do think it would be brave and inventive of the ironborn to sail west across the Sunset Sea (with proper ships and lemons), but you can’t get to Asshai that way? I know you own TLOIAF, so for anyone else reading this:
(low quality image uploaded for fair use purposes; if you want to see the details, please get yourself a set of the maps, they’re awesome) This is the known world. It’s unknown how much further Essos extends past Asshai, it could be thousands of miles. Ulthos is entirely unmapped and could be bigger than Sothoryos (also unmapped but reportedly at least as large as Essos but big north-south instead of east-west). Ulthos and Essos could even come around and meet for all the map-makers and maesters know, making the Saffron Straits more of a bay than anything else. And like GRRM said, this isn’t the whole world, there’s probably even a “new world” of continents east of Essos and west of Westeros.
Excuse me? “you can’t get to Asshai that way”?
You don’t know that. As you yourself point out, this is the map of the known world. Everything else is speculation. Essos might extend past Asshai for thousands of miles, or it might not. Ulthos might meet, or it might not.
In fact, I’d argue the evidence points the other way. For example, the fact that it’s called the Saffron Straights points against the two continents meeting – the people who live there have sailed east and they’d know the different between a bay and a strait.
Likewise, descriptions of westward voyages describe “boundless grey oceans stretching on and on forever.” Not impassable landmasses blocking sea traffic. The Farwynds might be crazy, but they’re saying the trip is possible.
Now, it’s possible there’s an Americos, and it’s possible there’s no way around or through Americos. But neither of that knows that for sure.
The big Westerosi castles are too big for the real world, but which ones seem realistic? Raventree Hall? Torrhen’s Square? Something larger, like the Twins?
Your Riverruns, Twins, Red Keeps, even your Highgardens, seem reasonable.
1. Trade, trade, trade. The Iron Islands should have the biggest fleet possible, and should invest in ocean-going ships that can sail west to Asshai.
2. Manufacturing. Lots of tin and iron, probably lots of coal around. Start making iron goods and selling them, rather than selling raw iron.
3. If they hadn’t fucked it up, negotiate with the North for available land.
You know, Point 1 bring ups something that I’ve been wondering since reading AWOIAF. It appears that the maesters believe that the world is a sphere, and I see no reason to believe that it’s not a regular planet in geographic terms. There’s also questions about how far east Essos goes and if there’s much beyond Asshai. It seems like they should have been able to calculate the approximate size of Planetos since that’s something managed by Eratosthenes with much less cartographic information/accuracy and institutional support compared to the maesters. Obviously their maps of Essos are probably less accurate than those of Westeros, but they should have a decent idea of how much space is missing.
This is not to say that it’s a distance that’s crossable by longship, or that there’s not some huge landmass in the way like Columbus lucked into, but at the very least they should have a decent idea of what the raw distance is, much like Europeans did in the 15th century. I suppose it’s possible in the book Yandel is being Yandel and not wanting people to get any funny ideas about visiting Asshai by a shortcut.
I think Steven typoed east as west above, but in case he didn’t, and in re your question — nobody has ever sailed west from Westeros, crossed the Sunset Sea. It’s not just Yandel or a maester thing (they do know the world is round), it’s just that nobody’s ever managed to get very far west without dying. (Not even the Summer Islanders, who go everywhere.) The Lonely Light is the westernmost point of the known world, and it’s only eight days sail from the main Iron Islands.
Perhaps it is possible that some venturesome Iron Islander will be the Leif Ericsson of Westeros, but they will most likely find a continent in the way, yes. Perhaps whatever part of Essos and Ulthos that extends east of Asshai (per The Lands of Ice and Fire), perhaps some other “new world” unknown continent that’s even further east.
Still, I agree that a proper ocean-going trade fleet that could sail east to Asshai (and the other lands of the Jade Sea on the way) would help the Iron Islands’ economy tremendously. (A trade fleet, not a raiding fleet.) And the rest of what was suggested above, too.
No, I meant west to Asshai. Yes, it’s true that no one’s successfully made the trip, but look at the ships they’re sailing with – cogs, carracks, dromonds, galleys – they’re not super-big ocean-going ships. Even the swan ships of the Summer Islands, according to their depiction in the Worldbook (p. 279), look like three-masted carracks.
If they’re going to make it across the Sunset Sea, you’re going to need a ship big enough to hold a lot of food and water – your proper 18th century ship of the line. And a maester who grows lemon trees in pots.
A. how much time I have available. Teaching and academic research and freelance journalism are how I earn a living, so those have to come first.
B. whether the question moves me. If it’s a question I’ve answered before, or a question that I don’t find interesting, or the muse simply isn’t answering today, I don’t answer it. Generally, I’m more interested in historical and political topics and worldbuilding meta, so I’m less into conspiracy theories or more character-intensive stuff.
At least from the Ironborn maester in Sworn Sword, it seems like they know it can be used for both. Also, the priests of the drowned god believe that people who drown and come back are blessed, so would try to save them – hence Aeron.
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