evelynvincible:

racefortheironthrone:

Sure, here are my reasons:

1. It’s clear from the text that Ned was strongly attracted to Ashara Dayne at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Ned’s an honorable man, but he’s someone with sexual passion and romantic desire too. And as neither he nor she was betrothed, their liaison is hardly dishonorable. 

2. I also think it feeds well into the central themes of Ned’s character – especially his being torn between honor and family, between duty and desire – and the overarching themes that GRRM is interested in (the human heart at war with itself). If Ned never felt anything for a woman before Catelyn, we don’t have the kind of conflict that we had in Catelyn’s case. In fact, wrt to the whole “promise me, Ned” thing, if Ned had nothing to do with Ashara Dayne, there’s no reason for her to exist as a red herring when you already have Wylla to perform that function. 

2a. If he did, then we have a better case of those themes at work. Ned was in love with one woman, but honor forced him to marry another. Then his desire to protect his family destroyed the woman he loved, and then poisoned his marriage. 

3. It also creates a nice parallel between Ned and Catelyn – both of them got married for the sake of their families, both of them entered into the marriage while being in love with someone else, and neither of them were in love with or particularly attracted to the other partner initially, and then grew to have more. 

4. I think it also works better to explain Ashara Dayne. If all she is to Ned is one of Brandon’s exes, why does he care about her? Why insist that her name not be mentioned, when he goes to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around? Why have there be rumors or have her in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when Lyanna is really the main point of that story? Likewise, it makes her eventual fate and Ned’s final meeting that much more meaningful – it’s a lot less tragic for her ex’s brother to kill her brother than for her lover to kill her brother. 

5. I also think it works to explain Brandon Stark’s character. It’s one thing for him to be a hot-headed horn-dog who Ned somewhat resents for being daddy’s favorite and having to live Brandon’s life for him. It’s another thing for him to be an emotionally abusive asshole who encourages his brother’s affections for Ashara Dayne only to turn around and immediately seduce her. Why would Ned build a tomb against tradition for the latter?  

Because Ashara isn’t a cover story, she’s a rumor. Wylla is the cover story. Ashara is a romanticization, on par with “Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because he loved her” (rather than out of necessity to complete a prophecy).

It is necessary and it would be a scandal. Brandon was in line to be Lord of Winterfell. If he’d died after Rickard, rather than before, he would have been Lord of Winterfell for his last 45 seconds and been entitled to a tomb on his own merits. Lyanna, no matter what, would never have been entitled to a tomb in the crypts.
Brandon was denied the future he was raised for; he was raised to be Lord of Winterfell, he did all the duties he was raised to do — including dying defending the honor of his and Ned’s beloved sister.
Giving Brandon the tomb he would have been entitled to as Lord is significantly less contentious than giving a Lord’s tomb to a sixteen year old girl who would never have been entitled to one otherwise.
Giving one to Lyanna while relegating Brandon to a less presitigious tomb would have been incredibly scandalous, and, yes, people would know. There’s likely an interment ceremony, that would be attended by the surviving Starks, members of the castle staff, maybe other Lords of the North. We know they hire stonemasons to carve the likenesses, we know (from Bran’s comment about the tombs) that the Stark children ask about them — they would have noticed that their aunt was interred their, while their uncle was not. There would have been talk. 
And we have no reason to believe there was enmity between Brandon and Ned. Yes, Ned thinks of Lyanna often, and he may very well have been more affected by her death than Brandon’s, but that isn’t to say he didn’t have a measure of affection or loyalty for his brother. Bran is eight. He is not privy to his father’s private thoughts, and the simple explanation that he loved Brandon and Lyanna both so much might not be the whole truth. 

You don’t think it’s more likely. That’s great, but I never said anything about the “Bad boy” model being correct. You’re constructing straw-men here.
It’s relevant that of the women who we KNOW were involved with Brandon, one confirmed that Brandon was sexually experienced, and the other provided a comparison between Brandon and Ned.
Based on other women’s impressions of the Stark brothers, Brandon is the one who was more likely to have attracted a woman’s attention (handsome, outgoing, boisterous).
Based on the Stark brothers’ established temperaments and personalities, Brandon is more likely than Ned to have completed a seduction over the course of a single tourney.
This is nothing about “bad boys” or “all women having the same taste,” it’s about textual evidence that suggests it would be extremely out of character for Ned to sexually involve himself with someone over such a short period, while such behavior is perfectly in line with what we know about Brandon.

Rhaegar was handsome, sensitive, and in the context of the Tourney, athletically impressive.
Robert, on the other hand, was handsome, but he was also rude, boisterous, and had a reputation as a womanizer all across Westeros, rather than just in the North (Lyanna knew about Robert’s exploits; Catelyn didn’t know about Brandon’s).
There are textually valid reasons Cersei and Lyanna would prefer Rhaegar to Robert, just as there are textually valid reasons Catelyn and Ashara would prefer Brandon to Ned, that have nothing to do with “bad boy” tropes.
Which I shouldn’t even have to say, because you’re the one harping about “bad boys,” not me.

And as far as romantic cliche’s go: falling for the “bad boy” is a cliche in MRA circlejerks about how women never go for Nice Guys. In stories about the male underdog, the male underdog completely winning the love of a woman who seems out of his league is much more common.

Again, the only Dayne we hear this from is Edric, who was born years after the fact, and has his information from his Aunt Allyria, who was engaged to Beric Dondarrion, so given his age, she was likely only a small child when Ashara died. Allyria may recall Ned’s visit to Starfall as coinciding with Ashara’s suicide and have romanticized the story herself. This is not outside the realm of possibility.
You’re treating Edric Dayne like he’s an entirely reliable narrator with absolute authority. He is not. He is twelve years old and repeating gossip from his aunt right alongside the much more widespread story that Jon Snow’s mother was named Wylla — though the jury is still out on who exactly she was.
It seems extremely unlikely that the Official Dayne Party Line is that Ned was involved with both Ashara and Wylla at Harrenhal, and given that Ned is not known for his sexual escapades, people who know him would find it difficult to believe he was involved with both.
Edric could have been named after Ned for any number of reasons, not least of which being that Ned returned their ancestral sword to them after killing Sir Arthur Dayne. He was a notably honorable man, and it seems more likely they commemorated him for than than for being the man who broke Ashara’s heart.

I was using “friendzone” as shorthand for Ashara not reciprocating his interest, but also possibly being fond of him or considering him a friend. It’s pretty clear from the context that I’m not using it pejoratively,  or to suggest that Ashara is in the wrong, or that Ned is somehow being victimized. 
It seems like you’re suggesting their relationship must have been either romantic or hostile — if I don’t think they were in love, then I must think they hated each other. I do not think that’s true. I
 think it’s possible Ned was in love with her, but that Ashara didn’t view him the same way. I think it’s possible that Ned accepted she preferred Brandon, and that her preference would not have poisoned her in his eyes. I also don’t think that Ashara being with Brandon would have ruined his relationship with Brandon.
You’re suggesting that if Ashara was with Brandon, Ned would not have any reason to be defensive of her reputation, not have any reason to care for her, would have forsaken any affection or loyalty he had to his brother, when I do not think that’s at all in line with Ned’s character.
Ned is capable of diplomacy, even with people he does not particularly like, and with people he loves doing things he doesn’t like (see: Robert celebrating the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon). It is not consistent with his character that he would have disowned Brandon and Ashara out of jealousy or spite.

For Ned’s immediate purposes – keep Jon safe – they both work as cover stories. Yet in one case he’s violently emotional and the other he’s not. 

Almost only works in horseshoes and hand grenades. Brandon was not a Lord of Winterfell. As Bran says, Ned was under no obligation to put up a statue of Brandon. The scandal wouldn’t be that Ned didn’t give one to Brandon, but that he gave one to Lyanna, but outside of the Starks themselves, no one mentions the tombs. Hell, the only non-Stark who’s shown the tomb by the Starks is Robert himself and servants. And the Freys.

Sorry, how is it that you’re not arguing Bad Boy, ergo he slept with Ashara? “Brandon was sexually experienced…Brandon is the one who was more likely to have attracted a woman’s attention (handsome, outgoing, boisterous)…Brandon is more likely than Ned to have completed a seduction over the course of a single tourney.” That is Bad Boy logic right there.

As for it being out of Ned’s character, how? We’re told explicitly he was attracted to her, he acted on that attraction, and that it wasn’t dishonorable for him to have slept with her when neither of them were engaged.

Yes, we only hear it from Edric, but he heard it from his family. Who are a hell of a lot closer sources then Ser Barristan or Barbrey Dustin.

I think Ned knew because Ashara told him, and his goal was to rescue his sister.

The Kingsguard were under orders to protect Rhaegar’s son and, after the Sack of King’s Landing, his heir. They fought to the death out of loyalty to House Targaryen. 

Tearing down the tower probably would not have taken that long – undermine a load-bearing wall and you could have the thing down in a day or two.

The Daynes accepted Arthur’s death, I believe, because of the death of Ashara and Ned’s daughter. 

Point to a single piece of textual information that says that premarital sex between two people free to marry is dishonorable that outweighs the textual evidence I posted showing the opposite.

I’m guessing that the chance of an accidental cave-in would be rather high.

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

A simplified version – follow the links for more. And for the events shortly prior to the Rebellion, see here.

1. Rhaegar Targaryen apparently kidnaps Lyanna Stark; Brandon Stark rides to KL to challenge Rhaegar (who isn’t there), is arrested by Aerys
2. Aerys executes Rickard and Brandon Stark and others, demands Ned and Robert’s heads
3. Jon Arryn refuses, raises the Vale banners against Aerys
4. Ned travels through the mountains, then via the Sisters to the North to raise the North’s banners
5. (at the same time) Battle of Gulltown, Vale loyalists vs Vale rebels; Robert leaves by ship via Gulltown to Storm’s End to raise the Stormlands banners
6. Ned brings the northern army down to the Riverlands, Jon Arryn does the same with the Vale army; Ned marries Catelyn Tully, Jon marries Lysa Tully, and thus House Tully (and most of the Riverlands) joins the rebels
7. Robert fights Battle of Summerhall, Battle of Ashford
8. Robert is wounded on his way to linking up with the northern armies; Battle of the Bells
9. Rhaegar arrives in KL with Dornish spears to join up with loyalist armies
   
10. Battle of the Trident; Robert kills Rhaegar and (again) is wounded
11. Loyalist survivors of the Trident flee back to KL, Ned and most of rebel army follows (Robert stays behind while his wound is treated)
12. Aerys prepares to burn down KL with wildfire; Rhaella and Viserys sent to Dragonstone
13. Sack of King’s Landing by late-joining Westerlands army; Aerys, Elia, and Elia’s children murdered; Ned and rebel army arrive in KL

The Sack of King’s Landing is generally considered the end of the Rebellion. However, there were further significant events, especially critical to following Ned’s path:

• Robert arrives in KL and is presented with the bodies of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon; Robert and Ned quarrel, Ned leaves KL (may also separate from his army at this point, and travel only with a small group of trusted men)
• Ned relieves the Siege of Storm’s End (note Stannis and Renly and the garrison had managed to survive due to the arrival of Davos with food some time earlier)
• The fight at the Tower of Joy; deaths of five of Ned’s men and 3 Kingsguard; Lyanna Stark dies
• Ned arrives at Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes
• Ned reconciles with Robert through their mutual mourning of Lyanna’s death
• Ned returns home; Catelyn arrives at Winterfell some time later with Robb to find Jon Snow already installed
• (in the meanwhile) Rhaella crowns Viserys; Stannis prepares assault on Dragonstone; huge summer storm smashes Targaryen fleet and at the same time Rhaella dies in childbirth with Dany; Willem Darry and the Targaryen children escape to Braavos just before Stannis’s fleet arrives; Stannis takes Dragonstone

And with that last event, a little over 9 months after the Battle of the Trident, the Rebellion was truly over.

Just to add some dates to this (which is why I changed the bullets to numbers for ease of reference):

• 1 and 2 take place very early in 282 AC, with Rickard and Brandon’s death probably not later than 2/282. Thus B+X=Anything couldn’t be born later than 11/282. 
• 6 couldn’t have happened earlier than 5/282.
• 8 is the first event known to happen in 283, and was at least two and a half months after 7 (i.e, 7 had to happen at or before 9/15/282), which in turn would put 5 at or before 9/6/282).
• 10 happened around a month after 8, which would make it at least 2/283.
• In turn, 13 happened two weeks after 10, so at least 2/15/283, but roughly a year after fighting started, which would place 3 if not 5 no earlier than 2/15/282. 
• Ned relieving Storm’s End would have taken 28 days, so we’re now at least in 3/15/383.
• Ned at ToJ would have taken at least 13 days, so that’s at least 4/1/383, around a month and a half after the Sack, which is close enough to GRRM’s 8-9 months before Dany. 

As for Ashara, well, GRRM did say her feet weren’t nailed down during the war.

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

racefortheironthrone:

I am well aware that Borrell thinks that Jon Snow’s mother is a Sistertonian – could have sworn he used the name Wylla, but if I’m wrong, cheerfully retracted. I’m saying that Borrell got that idea in a “Telephone Game” style misremembering/hearing because Ned Stark helped to spread the story around, because he wanted people believing cover stories rather than thinking about Lyanna.
And I think it’s significant that Ned feels and acts differently about Ashara than Wylla.

There’s the trick, though. Ned doesn’t feel anything about Ashara at all. She never appears in his inner monologue. The only time she’s mentioned in his narrative is when Cersei throws her in his
face (during the scene when he’s telling her to get herself and her kids out of town, he’s telling Robert). And Ned doesn’t react to Ashara’s name
then, and doesn’t even think of her later.
Regarding how Ned acts when people talk about Ashara, this is it:

Catelyn
heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her
husband’s soldiers. […] It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her
courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband
the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all
their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,”
he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to
know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had
pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had
stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Literally that’s the only thing. Now, this is how he acts when people talk about Wylla:

“What was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”
“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like…”
Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

And what does he do? He coldly says the name only when pressed, then gets angry when Robert pushes for more and asks him to drop the subject. I don’t see how that’s so much different that it means that Ned and Ashara must have been in love. 
I don’t doubt that Ned might have cared about Ashara, and was concerned for her honor. And it’s very likely that Ashara was involved in the R+L=J coverup somehow, which would have been another reason to stop people talking about her. But it’s a long long trip from the one time Ned talks about Ashara (or doesn’t talk about her, actually) to secret betrothals and true love separated by war, even if they danced at Harrenhal.
(BTW, if Barristan does think the father of Ashara’s baby was Brandon, I wonder what evidence led him to that conclusion.)

I still don’t buy it. I don’t think GRRM puts Ashara into the KOTL story and puts Edric Dayne into the story for no reason, and I think those contexts should influence how we interpret Ned’s behavior in AGOT. Hell, I’ll put $20 on it the same way I did with A+J!=T. 

As for why Ser Barristan thinks it’s a Stark – I think Ned left behind some garment with Stark livery on it, and Barristan jumped to the same conclusion as the fandom has, based on Brandon’s rep. 

evelynvincible:

racefortheironthrone:

Sure, here are my reasons:

1. It’s clear from the text that Ned was strongly attracted to Ashara Dayne at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Ned’s an honorable man, but he’s someone with sexual passion and romantic desire too. And as neither he nor she was betrothed, their liaison is hardly dishonorable. 

2. I also think it feeds well into the central themes of Ned’s character – especially his being torn between honor and family, between duty and desire – and the overarching themes that GRRM is interested in (the human heart at war with itself). If Ned never felt anything for a woman before Catelyn, we don’t have the kind of conflict that we had in Catelyn’s case. In fact, wrt to the whole “promise me, Ned” thing, if Ned had nothing to do with Ashara Dayne, there’s no reason for her to exist as a red herring when you already have Wylla to perform that function. 

2a. If he did, then we have a better case of those themes at work. Ned was in love with one woman, but honor forced him to marry another. Then his desire to protect his family destroyed the woman he loved, and then poisoned his marriage. 

3. It also creates a nice parallel between Ned and Catelyn – both of them got married for the sake of their families, both of them entered into the marriage while being in love with someone else, and neither of them were in love with or particularly attracted to the other partner initially, and then grew to have more. 

4. I think it also works better to explain Ashara Dayne. If all she is to Ned is one of Brandon’s exes, why does he care about her? Why insist that her name not be mentioned, when he goes to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around? Why have there be rumors or have her in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when Lyanna is really the main point of that story? Likewise, it makes her eventual fate and Ned’s final meeting that much more meaningful – it’s a lot less tragic for her ex’s brother to kill her brother than for her lover to kill her brother. 

5. I also think it works to explain Brandon Stark’s character. It’s one thing for him to be a hot-headed horn-dog who Ned somewhat resents for being daddy’s favorite and having to live Brandon’s life for him. It’s another thing for him to be an emotionally abusive asshole who encourages his brother’s affections for Ashara Dayne only to turn around and immediately seduce her. Why would Ned build a tomb against tradition for the latter?  

I still think Wylla’s name being thrown around is a public cover for R+L=J. Wylla’s identity, whoever she is — wet nurse, noble handmaiden, fisherman’s daughter — is kind of irrelevant. It’s a name to tack onto a story, and the reputation of a common girl no one’s heard of outside the Jon Snow mythos is a very different animal than the reputation of a renowned and well-known daughter of a an ancient and powerful house.

And I still take issue with defining Ashara as Ned’s “brother’s ex,” because I doubt that’s how Ned would have conceptualized her, even if it was the truth. If she was someone he had a crush on, he would still think of her as a woman he himself loved, not just in connection with his brother. 

I would happily agree to disagree on this point. It’s entirely possible that Brandon was emotionally abusive, I simply don’t think the text provides enough information about what happened to say for sure. At the very least, he was selfish and insensitive, though depending on his motives, it’s possible he was abusive.

I am not using “honor” as a catchall for “nice” or “good.” It’s not just “nice” for Ned to build a tomb for Brandon; it’s necessary, if he wants one for Lyanna.
Yes, it’s traditional to build a tomb for his father.
No, it’s not traditional to build a tomb for his brother and sister.
But he wants to build a tomb for his sister, and both his brother and sister are dead. 
How will he justify building a tomb — against tradition — for his sister, but not his brother?
This is what I mean when I talk about building tombs for both being “honorable.” If Ned gave Lyanna a rite usually reserved for Lords and Kings of Winterfell, while snubbing the equally-dead and arguably more deserving Brandon, it would be a scandal.
Brandon was raised his whole life to be Lord of Winterfell, he was gruesomely murdered alongside his father while on a mission to recover Lyanna (who was never seen alive again in the North), and yet Lyanna gets a King’s burial while Brandon is left out in the cold? The North would never stop talking about it. 
Ned would never knowingly choose to let a personal vendetta bring shame onto his house or his reputation. Period. 

Having not ever seen the “Women prefer bad boys” argument in this context, I’ll have to take your word for it that it’s a problem.  
However, I would casually point out that we have it from a few sources that Brandon was popular with the ladies — Barbrey Dustin noted him as a ladies’ man, and Catelyn we know was very taken with him (and initially disappointed by Ned in comparison). We also know from Robert Baratheon’s inquiry about Wylla (“she must have been quite a woman to make Ned Stark forget his honor”) that Ned wasn’t known for his passions.
So if one of the Starks was going to successfully seduce a highborn lady renowned for her beauty, it’s more likely the successful Stark was Brandon.

In the case of the Dayne’s repeating the story that Ashara was involved with Ned: the Dayne in question is once again Edric, who also tells Arya that Wylla the Wet Nurse is Jon’s mother. Wow, Ned must have had a busy time at Harrenhal! Do you suppose he, Ashara, and Wylla had a threesome, or was he seeing them both separately? What do you think the Dayne’s think happened, because after all, it’s one Dayne putting forth both rumors!
The truth is probably closer to being that the Daynes knew Ashara was involved with *a* Stark, and that Ned being the only Stark who ever made it to Starfall, and being the last Stark Ashara saw before her death, confirmed him in legend as the paramour.
Because, yes, it does make a good, dramatic, classic story: the quiet, overlooked brother wins a beautiful woman’s love, but duty takes him from her and she kills herself in grief.
It’s basically a Nicholas Sparks novel which, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, isn’t what GRRM is writing.
In the real world, women help men they’re not in love with all the time, and that help is often misconstrued as romance. It’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Ned was firmly in the “friendzone” when Ashara received Dawn from him, but that public imagination — fueled by tiny things like the single dance they shared together — ran away with itself.

1. Right, Wylla’s a cover story – so narratively, why have two cover stories?
2. It’s absolutely not necessary, and wouldn’t be a scandal. For one thing, “the whole of the North” isn’t invited to take tours of the Stark family crypt. For another, all it would say is that Ned loved Lyanna more than he loved Brandon. As Bran said, “my father loved them so much he had them done.” I don’t think he’d do it if he didn’t.
3. I don’t think it is more likely – Cersei (and probably Lyanna) fell in love/infatuation with Rhaegar despite him not fitting the “bad boy” model, and Robert being much closer to it. Assuming Ashara went for Brandon just because Barbry Dustin and Catelyn did is awfully close to saying all women have the same sexual interests. And honestly, it’s a lot closer to romantic cliche for her to go with the “bad boy.”
4. I think discounting the Daynes as a source of information is bad meta. The Daynes don’t say “a” Stark, they say Ned. They named Edric after him. And they’re the ones who grew up with and lived with Ashara, and would be the most likely to know.
5. And frankly the friendzone is just as much bullshit as “women prefer bad boys.”

Sex before marriage isn’t dishonorable. Harwin says as much: 

“When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

As for Brandon, while I’m not sure whether or not he “loved” Catelyn, I’m pretty sure he was attracted to her. Catelyn was a beautiful woman, everyone pretty much agrees on that, and womanizers normally are attracted to beautiful women. 

chicleeblair:

racefortheironthrone:

Well, R+L=J. It’s pretty clear. Timeline-wise, we learned a lot from WOIAF.

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This makes me wonder why they didn’t try to pass Jon off as the child Ashara lost and keep him in Dorne, unless Ned promised Lyanna he’d raise him/the Daynes didn’t want a Targ child around.

I think it’s a combination of a couple things:

1. His promise seems to have been, per Bran’s vision, to raise Jon as his own son. 

2. The Daynes are a bit close to ToJ, Ned visiting them is public knowledge, it’s a bit shaky as far as alibis go.

3. It’s quite possible Ashara’s stillbirth is too publicly known to pass off Jon, especially if the timing is off by several months.