Question on Stannis’ marriage

A Question that’s been bugging me that I’ve never spotted an answer to that your post about Stannis reminded me of: Why did Stannis marry Selyse in the first place? I’m sure that the marriage was arranged for him as Stannis doesn’t strike me as someone to pursue her, plus he was never fond of her anyway, so I assume that Robert (or Jon Arryn in Robert’s name) set up the match. But what did anyone besides the Florents get out of it? She’s not the daughter of the Florent lord and the family is huge, so the lands are never coming to the Baratheons, barring a miracle. Selyse is not regarded a pretty and she had a cousin of close to the same age that I assume Robert thought was hot because he deflowered her in the marriage bed while the marriage feast was still going on. It shouldn’t matter what she looks like for a political marriage, but it’s been shown many times that the bride’s appearance gets taken into account all the time, so it’s a negative that a presumed positive counterbalances. Are the Florents so influential that marrying a daughter on a second son gives the Royal family something worth the hand in marriage of the king’s brother?

I’ve always suspected that Robert set up Stannis’ marriage to Selyse as a slight to him the same way that, IIRC, he gave him Dragonstone as his seat instead of Storm’s End. I’d be interested in your thoughts.

David Hunt

If I recall correctly, GRRM said it was a combination of Robert’s lack of attention to the necessities of his reign, and I’ve read some analyses that suggest that Jon Arryn thought that a possibility that Robert might support House Florent’s claim to Highgarden might keep the Tyrells looking to curry favor rather than aggressively supporting Targaryen revanchism.

Banning vs. Censorship vs. Pulling, There’s a Big Difference

graphicpolicy:

Banning vs. Censorship vs. Pulling, There’s a Big Difference #comics

While many agreed with our statement that Image Comics‘ Airboy #2 written by James Robinson contained material that was transphobic, some also did not support our call to pull the comic from shelves (virtual or physical). They decried censorship, hid behind free speech and artistic expression, and some trotted out the 1st Amendment. In doing so, they played into the hands of individuals defending…

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Amen.

Chapter-by-Chapter Analysis: Sansa III

“life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow.” Synopsis: Sansa talks with Jeyne Poole about her father’s actions last chapter, gets creeped on by Littlefinger, gets into a fight with Arya, argues with her father about being sent back to Winterfell, and helps uncover the last piece in the puzzle of Jon Arryn’s investigations. SPOILER WARNING: This chapter analysis, and…

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Why’d you chose this theme? It’s not the best looking one ever, just so that you know; but if you want to keep using this theme, it’s fine with me. I hope nothing’s bad between us. :)

It’s simple and uncluttered.

No, nothing bad between us.

What would have happened to a ward like Theon Greyjoy in “ordinary” circumstances (no Others, Varys/Littlefinger/Lannister conspiracies)? He was 20 at the beginning of the series – was Ned going to keep Theon until Balon died, even if Balon lived another 30 years? Or at some point would Ned let Theon get married and leave Winterfell? Just return Theon to Balon? Married Theon to Sansa/Arya? Done something else? How does a situation like this usually end?

Well, keep in mind that he’s both a ward and a hostage, which complicates the normal routine, which was generally to return people to home upon majority.

However, one of the things you did see happening with hostages was an attempt to reinforce loyalties from childhood/education by having them marry someone from their captor’s region – I seem to recall a bunch of Scottish hostages in the 16th century were married into English families to give them a stake in good Anglo-Scottish relations once they were returned home.

Your Riverlands development plan involves the granting of City Charters. Does anyone buy the King on the Iron Throne have authority to grant Charters? I thought that was the case because of the history of the Defiance of Dusknendale, but now realize it being in the Crownlands makes my original thoughts moot.

It’s a bit of a lacuna in the text – most of the cities in Westeros predate the Targaryen monarchy, and the only example we have of a locality asking for a charter comes from the Crownlands, where the king would be the direct liege lord anyway.

I’ve been working on the assumption that a Lord Paramount has that authority, given the general decentralization of authority in the Westerosi monarchy. However, if that’s not the case, replace “grant city charter” with “bribe King outrageously until they grant city charter” where appropriate.

I read your post about how the Riverlands have wealth that doesn’t reach Riverrun, and how if it was better managed could also yield way more fighting men. If you were Lord of the Riverlands during a period of peace, what would you do to fix the issues it has to make it wealthier/more powerful?

asbraveasrobb:

racefortheironthrone:

cornbreadcrumbs:

racefortheironthrone:

Excellent question. The question sort of depends on the period, but let’s drop me in as a Tully of Riverrun. They’re in a pretty good position, being right on the Red Fork and the River Road, but they don’t have too many resources – however, the relatively undeveloped nature of the Riverlands means that a canny lord could acquire more.

I’ve often thought that the mouth of the Trident is a hugely unexploited resource, so one of my first moves would be to build a second Riverrun (complete with a moat to wall off the third side) at the confluence of the Blue Fork and the Red. With a sufficient riverrine navy (which I would put no small amount of money into) and marine support from Riverrun, that position should be unassailable and allow me to dominate traffic on all three Forks, which should give me the upper hand on the lords of the Trident and the more easterly parts of my dominion (odd that the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands are so far away from the center of their region) and a major source of revenue from increased tax collection and a modest tariff. Riverrun-2 is also an excellent place for a cadet branch of the family and ensure that supernumerary brothers and sons can be made useful.

Next, I would work to combine regional alliances with regional development. :

a Blue Fork to Ironman’s Bay canal would hugely increase trade, to the benefit of House Mallister and my own (since the ships would have to pass by Riverrun-2), and allow House Mallister to better check the Freys (although I’d definitely insist that the Mallisters put some of the extra cash into more oceangoing ships – I want them to be the Riverlands Redwynes). At the same time, Riverrun-2 should ensure that the Mallisters’ new dependence on riverrine trade means a certain deference (make sure those ships’ keels are too long for the canal).

An extension of the River Road from Maidenpool to Lord Harroway’s Town would do a similar thing with House Mooton (which is too far in King’s Landing’s orbit thanks to the Rosby Road, as we saw during Robert’s Rebellion). In addition to boosting trade along the River Road and improving access to seaport trade, this also means that I can move my armies faster to the eastern Riverlands – historically a region where the Kings of the Trident have struggled to project authority.

Finally, I would put some money into the improvement of the defenses of Stony Sept, both by improving the fortifications of the town and by building a canal to link the Red Fork to the Blackwater (which also provides some competition to the Mallisters) to allow me to move reinforcements down from Riverrun and create a water barrier along the southern border. Indeed, if I can manage it, I’d try to take

and creating a new center of gravity in the southern Riverlands since Harrenhal is such a deadweight.

All of these things should be paired with marriage alliances between House Tully and Houses Mallister, Mooton, Roote, etc. Hopefully, these links to these strengthened Houses would give me a constituency to back me against the likes of the Freys, the Blackwoods and Brackens, etc.

Third, political reform. Given so many fractious and divided vassals, I would institute a Great Council of the Riverlands as a permanent legislative assembly. This would serve multiple purposes – first, having a voice in consensus-building increases willingness to pay taxes; second, it allows me to play Houses off against each other through patronage; third, it hopefully puts some hostages in my grasp a la Versailles and Edo; forth, as we’ve seen from Alayne, lesser Houses eat up drama and pageantry. (Possibly look into a knightly Order of the Trident to further encourage this?) At the same time, to bolster my power vis-a-vis the lordly houses, I would establish city charters for LHT, Seagard, Stoney Sept, and Maidenpool as a way to create new direct relationships between House Tully and the merchant class of those places and further boost trade and economic development (and city militias are a good way to improve military readiness).

After that, technology and culture would be key. Import Myrish and Braavosi artisans and merchants (encourage them to bring theater and the like with them), establish guilds of artificers and engineers, build some watermills. Lobby the High Septon to upgrade Stoney Sept to a Great Sept with a Most Devout, maybe build up Humphrey Teague into a Riverlands quasi-saint a la Baelor the Blessed and encourage pilgrim traffic. Build church schools in the cities and towns to expand literacy.

This gets me so excited, even though it’s a fictional kingdom. Make it happen future lords of the trident!

Just curious: would folks be interested in “development plans” for each of the Seven Kingdoms?

Thank you so much for such a detailed response. With giving the city charters out, how would you make sure that the lords of those new cities would not become more powerful than Riverrun or Riverrun-2? And if you wanted a new center of gravity for the Southeast, why not build Riverrun-2 near the Gold Road, at the confluence of the Blackwater Rush and whatever river flows from the God’s Eye? Also yes I would be very interested in your development plans!

Good questions:

1. Depending on how you design a city charter, you can actually disempower the lord of that area by giving the city self-government and freedom from some feudal taxes, and creating a political link between yourself and the citizens without a vassal as intermediary – it’s one of the reasons why kings and emperors gave out city charters in our own history.

2. Well, near the Goldroad and the Blackwater kind of describes Stoney Sept. My logic with Riverrun-2 was to build on existing resources – Riverrun gets its economic power through its position on the Red Fork, but it’s pretty far up the Red Fork and it doesn’t have control of the Blue or Green Forks, and if you’re going to actually control the Riverlands, that starts with a firm control on the Trident, since it’s a key navigational and commercial hub, and the only natural defensive feature of the Riverlands.

Stormlands Economic Development Plan

Ok, so I’m the new lord of the Stormlands. I’ve got a kickass castle, bad weather, and a very dysfunctional family – how can I improve on this?

Goal 1: Timber and Trade

The two basic natural advantages of the Stormlands are that it’s really close to Essos and that it has an enormous amount of timber (the amber is nice, but it’s not particularly useful) – but it’s not really making any good use of these advantages.

So the first step is to begin making use of the Rainwood and the Kingswood (altho the king has sole hunting rights over the kingswood, he doesn’t seem to have sole cutting rights, as there are settlements in the kingswood. If necessary, bribe the king). Set up sawmills on the Slayne, Wendwater, etc. to build up a lumber industry and clear land for farming – while being careful to practice good forestry management. Encourage carpentry and woodworking in a big way – tax benefits, free land, guild charters, industrial espionage against House Forrester, etc. – to begin moving up the value-added chain and have something to export.

Once I have that infrastructure, engage in sufficient bribery and/or industrial espionage in Braavos and the Summer Isles to begin building up a shipbuilding industry second to none – which in turn should support a huge navy and merchant marine. This in turn, requires port cities – which means charters for any decently-sized and minimally-stormy harbor, and given that I’ve got some pretty hefty competition with King’s Landing means I’m going to have to heavily undercut my competition in terms of tariffs, harbor fees, warehouse fees, etc. Need to be careful to stay in the black, at least to start, and hope that my home-grown merchant marine can compensate.

In the early stages, this will have to be concentrated on Cape Wrath between Stonehelm and Weeping Town (which seem to be a bit more protected by the Rainwood), but once you’ve got revenue up, I’m going to need a massive system of breakwaters, lighthouses, and beacons to make Shipbreaker Bay a productive marine economy, as right now it’s at least a third of my territory and it’s not good for much.

Goal 2: Immigration

One of my major problems as the Lord of the Stormlands is that “the realms of the Durrandons and their successors have always been thinly peopled when compared to the Reach, the Riverlands, and the west.” A thin population means a low tax base, small labor force (which in a predominantly agricultural society means some hard limits on food supply, and thus population growth) and a small army.

So my second main goal is to attract immigrants – especially skilled craftsmen and sailors, but also lumberjacks, saw mill workers, longshoremen and warehouse workers, and farmers. And my main strategy here is going to be quite similar to a lot of German Princes after the Thirty Years War which depopulated much of the HRE – offer free land and tax exemption for a limited number of years to entice people to immigrate.

Given that primogeniture seems to be the rule, it shouldn’t be too hard to lure supernumerary sons from the Reach and the Riverlands. However, given my need for expert shipbuilders, sailors, merchants, and artisans, I’m going to need to look abroad too – the Summer Isles, Myr, Braavos, etc. Which is no doubt going to cause some social disruption, but that’s the cost of progress, and I am an ambitious early modern state-builder after all.

Goal 3: Administrative Reform

At this point, I have to recognize, even with a stronger economy and a larger population, there are hard geographical limits to the Stormlands, at least as long as the Iron Throne is operative. I’m not going to be able to grow as much food or field as many troops as the Reach, so I’m going to have to be more efficient, so that the extra ships, the extra farmland, the extra tax revenue is used to best advantage.

So that means I need my own version of the Small Council and a small army of clerks to push the Stormlands into something more like the Tudor state, although my ultimate aim is something like the Prussian Reforms.

————————————————————————-

Up Next: Dorne

I read your post about how the Riverlands have wealth that doesn’t reach Riverrun, and how if it was better managed could also yield way more fighting men. If you were Lord of the Riverlands during a period of peace, what would you do to fix the issues it has to make it wealthier/more powerful?

cornbreadcrumbs:

racefortheironthrone:

Excellent question. The question sort of depends on the period, but let’s drop me in as a Tully of Riverrun. They’re in a pretty good position, being right on the Red Fork and the River Road, but they don’t have too many resources – however, the relatively undeveloped nature of the Riverlands means that a canny lord could acquire more.

I’ve often thought that the mouth of the Trident is a hugely unexploited resource, so one of my first moves would be to build a second Riverrun (complete with a moat to wall off the third side) at the confluence of the Blue Fork and the Red. With a sufficient riverrine navy (which I would put no small amount of money into) and marine support from Riverrun, that position should be unassailable and allow me to dominate traffic on all three Forks, which should give me the upper hand on the lords of the Trident and the more easterly parts of my dominion (odd that the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands are so far away from the center of their region) and a major source of revenue from increased tax collection and a modest tariff. Riverrun-2 is also an excellent place for a cadet branch of the family and ensure that supernumerary brothers and sons can be made useful.

Next, I would work to combine regional alliances with regional development. :

a Blue Fork to Ironman’s Bay canal would hugely increase trade, to the benefit of House Mallister and my own (since the ships would have to pass by Riverrun-2), and allow House Mallister to better check the Freys (although I’d definitely insist that the Mallisters put some of the extra cash into more oceangoing ships – I want them to be the Riverlands Redwynes). At the same time, Riverrun-2 should ensure that the Mallisters’ new dependence on riverrine trade means a certain deference (make sure those ships’ keels are too long for the canal).

An extension of the River Road from Maidenpool to Lord Harroway’s Town would do a similar thing with House Mooton (which is too far in King’s Landing’s orbit thanks to the Rosby Road, as we saw during Robert’s Rebellion). In addition to boosting trade along the River Road and improving access to seaport trade, this also means that I can move my armies faster to the eastern Riverlands – historically a region where the Kings of the Trident have struggled to project authority.

Finally, I would put some money into the improvement of the defenses of Stony Sept, both by improving the fortifications of the town and by building a canal to link the Red Fork to the Blackwater (which also provides some competition to the Mallisters) to allow me to move reinforcements down from Riverrun and create a water barrier along the southern border. Indeed, if I can manage it, I’d try to take

and creating a new center of gravity in the southern Riverlands since Harrenhal is such a deadweight.

All of these things should be paired with marriage alliances between House Tully and Houses Mallister, Mooton, Roote, etc. Hopefully, these links to these strengthened Houses would give me a constituency to back me against the likes of the Freys, the Blackwoods and Brackens, etc.

Third, political reform. Given so many fractious and divided vassals, I would institute a Great Council of the Riverlands as a permanent legislative assembly. This would serve multiple purposes – first, having a voice in consensus-building increases willingness to pay taxes; second, it allows me to play Houses off against each other through patronage; third, it hopefully puts some hostages in my grasp a la Versailles and Edo; forth, as we’ve seen from Alayne, lesser Houses eat up drama and pageantry. (Possibly look into a knightly Order of the Trident to further encourage this?) At the same time, to bolster my power vis-a-vis the lordly houses, I would establish city charters for LHT, Seagard, Stoney Sept, and Maidenpool as a way to create new direct relationships between House Tully and the merchant class of those places and further boost trade and economic development (and city militias are a good way to improve military readiness).

After that, technology and culture would be key. Import Myrish and Braavosi artisans and merchants (encourage them to bring theater and the like with them), establish guilds of artificers and engineers, build some watermills. Lobby the High Septon to upgrade Stoney Sept to a Great Sept with a Most Devout, maybe build up Humphrey Teague into a Riverlands quasi-saint a la Baelor the Blessed and encourage pilgrim traffic. Build church schools in the cities and towns to expand literacy.

This gets me so excited, even though it’s a fictional kingdom. Make it happen future lords of the trident!

Just curious: would folks be interested in “development plans” for each of the Seven Kingdoms?

I read your post about how the Riverlands have wealth that doesn’t reach Riverrun, and how if it was better managed could also yield way more fighting men. If you were Lord of the Riverlands during a period of peace, what would you do to fix the issues it has to make it wealthier/more powerful?

Excellent question. The question sort of depends on the period, but let’s drop me in as a Tully of Riverrun. They’re in a pretty good position, being right on the Red Fork and the River Road, but they don’t have too many resources – however, the relatively undeveloped nature of the Riverlands means that a canny lord could acquire more.

I’ve often thought that the mouth of the Trident is a hugely unexploited resource, so one of my first moves would be to build a second Riverrun (complete with a moat to wall off the third side) at the confluence of the Blue Fork and the Red. With a sufficient riverrine navy (which I would put no small amount of money into) and marine support from Riverrun, that position should be unassailable and allow me to dominate traffic on all three Forks, which should give me the upper hand on the lords of the Trident and the more easterly parts of my dominion (odd that the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands are so far away from the center of their region) and a major source of revenue from increased tax collection and a modest tariff. Riverrun-2 is also an excellent place for a cadet branch of the family and ensure that supernumerary brothers and sons can be made useful.

Next, I would work to combine regional alliances with regional development. :

a Blue Fork to Ironman’s Bay canal would hugely increase trade, to the benefit of House Mallister and my own (since the ships would have to pass by Riverrun-2), and allow House Mallister to better check the Freys (although I’d definitely insist that the Mallisters put some of the extra cash into more oceangoing ships – I want them to be the Riverlands Redwynes). At the same time, Riverrun-2 should ensure that the Mallisters’ new dependence on riverrine trade means a certain deference (make sure those ships’ keels are too long for the canal).
An extension of the River Road from Maidenpool to Lord Harroway’s Town would do a similar thing with House Mooton (which is too far in King’s Landing’s orbit thanks to the Rosby Road, as we saw during Robert’s Rebellion). In addition to boosting trade along the River Road and improving access to seaport trade, this also means that I can move my armies faster to the eastern Riverlands – historically a region where the Kings of the Trident have struggled to project authority.
Finally, I would put some money into the improvement of the defenses of Stony Sept, both by improving the fortifications of the town and by building a canal to link the Red Fork to the Blackwater (which also provides some competition to the Mallisters) to allow me to move reinforcements down from Riverrun and create a water barrier along the southern border. Indeed, if I can manage it, I’d try to take
and creating a new center of gravity in the southern Riverlands since Harrenhal is such a deadweight.

All of these things should be paired with marriage alliances between House Tully and Houses Mallister, Mooton, Roote, etc. Hopefully, these links to these strengthened Houses would give me a constituency to back me against the likes of the Freys, the Blackwoods and Brackens, etc.

Third, political reform. Given so many fractious and divided vassals, I would institute a Great Council of the Riverlands as a permanent legislative assembly. This would serve multiple purposes – first, having a voice in consensus-building increases willingness to pay taxes; second, it allows me to play Houses off against each other through patronage; third, it hopefully puts some hostages in my grasp a la Versailles and Edo; forth, as we’ve seen from Alayne, lesser Houses eat up drama and pageantry. (Possibly look into a knightly Order of the Trident to further encourage this?) At the same time, to bolster my power vis-a-vis the lordly houses, I would establish city charters for LHT, Seagard, Stoney Sept, and Maidenpool as a way to create new direct relationships between House Tully and the merchant class of those places and further boost trade and economic development (and city militias are a good way to improve military readiness).

After that, technology and culture would be key. Import Myrish and Braavosi artisans and merchants (encourage them to bring theater and the like with them), establish guilds of artificers and engineers, build some watermills. Lobby the High Septon to upgrade Stoney Sept to a Great Sept with a Most Devout, maybe build up Humphrey Teague into a Riverlands quasi-saint a la Baelor the Blessed and encourage pilgrim traffic. Build church schools in the cities and towns to expand literacy.