Tag: the riverlands

Steven Xue Asks: Why didn’t Tywin purge Robb’s allies post Red Wedding?

I’m sure you will eventually cover this somewhere down the road, but I have to ask. After the Red Wedding wouldn’t it have been more beneficial in the long term if Tywin had agreed to Joffrey’s wishes on purging Robb Starks former allies?

I know Tywin believes “if your enemies bend the knee you must help them to their feet otherwise nobody will bend the knee to you”. I for one believe in this doctrine as well but I feel that many of the former rebels may still feel very bitter towards the Lannisters for all the grievances they have suffered because of them. So even though they have since the Red Wedding reaffirmed their allegiance to the Crown, there’s no guarantee that most if not all of them will rebel again if given the chance.

Even though the Riverlords and Northern lords have been crushed at the Twins and now possess very limited military strength, they are still in a position to cause the Crown much trouble if opportunity arises. With Lannister power now weakening, many Riverlords especially in the current political climate would want to avenge themselves of the first wedding as well as any other transgressions by the Lannisters, which means they will not only rebel openly but also do it by rallying behind any of the Lannister’s enemies whether they be a Stark, Tully or any of the pretenders to the throne. 

I know it would have been more costly and even looked upon unfavorably but in the long run don’t you think that it would have been more sound to have done what Joffrey wanted and eliminated the houses that had followed the Starks in rebellion and most likely still secretly oppose the Crown, while also giving their seats to nobles who are loyal to the Lannisters?  

Well, let’s start with a very important factor in this decision: Robb Stark left the Riverlands part of his army behind when he went to the Twins, because he was planning on returning to the North: “aside from her brother Edmure’s modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north.”  These Riverlords have 11,000 soldiers between them. 

And while the Lannisters and Tyrells together have the manpower to destroy these remaining forces, their forces are split between many fronts: initially they have to retake Dragonstone and retake Storm’s End from Stannis, then the Tyrells send men to besiege Brightwater Keep, then the Tyrells send men to threaten King’s Landing if anything happens to Margaery, then the Golden Company lands, etc. And keep in mind, a lot of the Lannister forces demobilize  when Tywin’s body is sent back to the Rock.

So the best example of why the Lannisters didn’t do this is the second Siege of Riverrun, where poor Daven is trying to coordinate a military operation with only 1,500 Westermen under his command:

You’ve seen our numbers, Edmure. You’ve seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you’ll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades.

Without the Riverlords, that first wave (which is what really demoralizes Edmure) doesn’t exist and instead the assault will have to go with Freys and Westermen leading the way and maybe the assault fails. 

Which brings me to the ultimate point: yes, on paper, the Lannisters and the Tyrells could completely destroy the armed strength of the Riverlands. But when you back someone into the corner, they fight like a trapped rat, and that pushes up the casualty rate. Just look at what happened at Dragonstone, where a token force of men killed a thousand Westermen. Now imagine that happening again and again in dozens of sieges across the Riverlands.

When Arrec and Arlan V Durrandon both tried to take back the Riverlands why didn’t any of the lords of the Trident side with them against the Ironborn, who were way worse?

Here’s the thing tho: in the case of Arrec, there weren’t a lot of Riverlanders who were eager to have him back – maybe the Blackwoods, given their blood ties, although they would have been licking their wounds from their massacre at Blackwood Hall, and maybe the Tullys (although they were far too practical to throw good money after bad) – and a lot of Riverlanders who had participated in overthrowing him (the Brackens, the Charltons, and twenty other houses) who would have been facing treason trials if he ever retook the Riverlands. 

As for Arlan V, it’s probably a case of better the devil you know – Harwyn was a hard man when it came to tribute and homage, but if you kept out of his line of march, he generally let you alone (”their ironborn overlords had largely ignored such conflicts amongst their vassals”) – than the devil you don’t. After all, the memories of Durrandon tyranny were still fresh, and the worst of Ironborn tyranny had yet to come…

Simply put, in the Riverlands, Durrandon was not a name a name to conjur with. 

POLITICS OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS: THE RIVERLANDS (PART II)

POLITICS OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS: THE RIVERLANDS (PART II)

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Credit to J.E Fullerton/Ser Other-in-Law
When last we left off in the story of the political development of the Riverlands, the grip of the Stormlanders on their province was beginning to slip, and the Ironborn were rowing across Ironman’s Bay, looking to shake it loose for good…
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How do you think the Manderlys managed to flee to the site of White Harbor, which is on the eastern seaboard of the North? As far as I know, the Mander doesn’t link with any river draining into the Narrow Sea, & the Reach borders the Sunset Sea not the Narrow Sea, so wouldn’t it have made more sense for them to flee to somewhere on the Stony Shore or Sea Dragon Point? Plus, why did they flee all the way to the cold North instead of say, the more verdant Riverlands or Vale?

Well, they probably sailed east around Dorne and then up the Narrow Sea.

As to why not the Riverlands or the Vale…the Riverlands is famously fractious and prone to private wars over land, why would any houses stand by and let some king take their land and give it away to a Reacherman when the Reach had been invading the Riverlands since the fall of House Justman? And what Riverlander king would have the authority to make that stick? 

Likewise, the Vale is pretty small and the lands had been divided up early on, which is one of the major reasons why the Andals had invaded the Riverlands with the encouragement of the Arryns – not enough space, need to get people to emigrate. 

Whereas the Starks had vacant land, because the Wolf’s Den was not being properly held and had been repeatedly attacked by the Arryns and the Sistermen and slavers from the Stepstones. The Manderlys offered an opportunity to solve a major security problem without the Starks themselves having to pay for it. 

Politics of the Seven Kingdoms: The Riverlands (Part I)

Politics of the Seven Kingdoms: The Riverlands (Part I)

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Credit to J.E Fullerton/Ser Other-in-Law Introduction In Part IV of the Politics of the Seven Kingdoms, we come to the best example of a failed state in Westeros – indeed, the only region of Westeros to ever lose the status of a Kingdom.  The Riverlands are a perpetual runner-up in the game of thrones, more often a pawn or even the game board than a real player, despite its relatively large size,…

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I’ve seen you say in a few places that the ideal strategy for Edmure Tully to defend the Riverlands during the Wot5K would be to cede ground for time and use the Trident as a defensive multiplier. I don’t disagree with you at all, but was wondering to what extent his promise of protection as liege lord to his vassals would allow him to write the Vances’ and others’ lands off in the short-term without repercussions.

I think it depends on the cultural assumptions of war in that region. Consider that the Martells’ grip on their bannermen didn’t slip an inch when Aegon was burning down every single castle in Dorne except Sunspear, for example. 

In the case of the Riverlands, if you look back into their history, defense in depth and guerrilla warfare is how they win wars, whether you’re talking about the Dance of the Dragons or the revolt against the Stormlanders. So I think Edmure’s bannermen would understand the necessities of war, especially if its keeping the majority safe behind watery walls of the Riverlands. 

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As with the argument about the Battle of the Fords, I think people have this in reverse. As we can see from this map, the vast, vast majority of the Riverlands is either east of the Red Fork and/or north of the Tumblestone. That tiny triangle of land in the middle –  which probably is just House Vance of Wayfarer’s Rest, since Pinkmaiden (the castle of the Pipers) on the eastern bank of the Red Fork – is not going to have the political influence to outweigh the rest. 

Can the Riverlords/landers really have hated the Durrandons that much to be so thick when Harwyn invaded?! Longships CARRIED unmolested to the Blue Fork, HIDING in castles while their lands & people suffer, joining Hoare AFTER that & his brutality to Rivers & the Blackwoods (plus historical enmity), attacking Stormlanders of own accord, missing Harwyn ≠ Harmund(s) – that he would really allow them to be independent & “freed” them out of the goodness of his heart … THE IRONBORN!

Yeah, pretty much. 

And so they would remain for more than three centuries, though the riverlords rose against Storm’s End at least once each generation. A dozen pretenders from as many houses would adopt the style of River King or King of the Trident and vow to throw off the yoke of the stormlanders. Some even succeeded…for a fortnight, a moon’s turn, even a year. But their thrones were built on mud and sand, and in the end a fresh host would march from Storm’s End to topple them and hang the men who’d presumed to sit upon them. Thus ended the brief inglorious reigns of Lucifer Justman (Lucifer the Liar), Marq Mudd (the Mad Bard), Lord Robert Vance, Lord Petyr Mallister, Lady Jeyne Nutt, the bastard king Ser Addam Rivers, the peasant king Pate of Fairmarket, and Ser Lymond Fisher, Knight of Oldstones, along with a dozen more…

As the ironborn moved up and down the rivers, reaving and raiding as they pleased, a bold young knight named Samwell Rivers, a natural son of Tommen Tully, Lord of Riverrun, assembled a small host and met King Harwyn on the Tumblestone, but his lines shattered…Lord Tully abandoned Riverrun without a fight, fleeing with all his strength to join the host gathering at Raventree Hall under Lady Agnes Blackwood and her sons. But when Lady Agnes advanced upon the ironborn, her belligerent neighbor Lord Lothar Bracken fell upon her rear with all his strength and put her men to flight.

…Many of the riverlords had joined the ironmen by then. Under the command of the Lords Goodbrook, Paege, and Vypren, they slipped across the Blackwater and fell upon the slowmoving baggage train before it reached the river, putting King Arrec’s rear guard to flight and seizing his supplies. Thus it was a stumbling, starving host of stormlanders who finally faced Harwyn Hardhand at Fairmarket, where Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and a score of other riverlords had joined him.

House Durrandon had failed to establish any kind of legitimate claim to the Riverlands and clearly lacked any support aside from their Blackwood kin and a few other houses. By contrast, the Brackens had every reason to want a change of government – the Brackens had been loyal to the Teague Kings and wanted vengeance against the Blackwoods who had betrayed the Teagues to the Storm Kings. 

And clearly the Brackens weren’t alone – it’s quite likely that they were joined by other former Teague loyalists (and Seven worshippers) to fight a dynasty they viewed as foreign invaders.

Does House Arryn have any lands, either direct or through a vassal house, on the western side of the Mountains of the Moon (excluding the area west of Wickenden? I’m particularly interested in the region of the SW corner of the Bite? Various sources (Wiki, ridiculous WorldoIaF maps) indicate that it belongs to the Arryns, yet my common sense and the canon history of the region (pre-Conquest, through the Targ’s reign and the novels themselves) all point to this being near impossible. (1)Thoughts?

Continuation of my Q about the SW corner of the Bite: (2) If this region belonged to the Tullys, would it be a good location for a port town in the context of your Economic Development Plan for the Riverlands? (3) If it is House Arryn’s *cough!, would it be worth the trouble to get your hands on the lands?

1. I’m assuming you mean that strip of land along the coast immediately south of the Sisters, and not the part of the Riverlands along the kingsroad (which the Valemen tried to capture during the reign of Rolland II Arryn, who was defeated and later beheaded by Tristifer V Mudd). 

It’s a bit tricky, because that land doesn’t always exist, depending on the map. (Incidentally, the World of Ice and Fire map of the Vale is completely rubbish – somehow putting the Mountains of the Moon smack-dab on top of the Vale proper, to the east of the Bloody Gate) Some of the various book maps, for example, as well as Tear’s fan map (which GRRM endorsed pre-Lands of Ice and Fire), show the mountains coming up right to the coast as opposed to having this decent stretch of level ground.  

Now, I don’t think it’s that impossible for this land (if it exists) to Arryn rather than Tully – for one thing, it’s substantially to the east of the Mountains of the Moon, which seems to have been the historical boundary between the Riverlands and the Vale. It’s also really close to the Sisters and the northernmost Fingers, suggesting that historically those lands would have been in the orbit of either the Sunderlands or the Coldwaters or the Belmores or the Lynderlys or the Corbrays.

2. As a port…eh. It’s got a couple problems in that White Harbor and the Sisters are already-established competitors really close by, so you’re going to struggle to get off the ground. Exporting your goods into the Vale itself is going to either involve sailing all the way around the coast, in which case why not cut out the middleman and sell to Gulltown directly, or an incredibly expensive and risky mountain portage. If instead you want to export to the south or west, you’re going to run into some pretty steep rent-seeking from the Riverlords (especially the Freys if you want to access Seagard’s port), and it’s not really that much of a time saving compared to just going to White Harbor and taking the Kingsroad all the way down. 

3. It honestly depends on how productive these potentially non-existent lands are. The Riverlands aren’t exactly wanting for farmland, and they have easier ways to access the Narrow Sea through Maidenpool and Saltpans and the like. And it would be very hard to hang onto them, because they could be pretty easily cut off by a force landing from the Sisters. 

Hypothetically, if Robb had won the war and married Roslin Frey, who would have been tw best internal marriage options for Edmure and Sansa to help integrate the two portions of Robb’s kingdom?

Assuming that Robb doesn’t need external alliances, it would be a good idea to marry Edmure into the Manderlys – they’re a powerful Northern House, but they’re also the most conversant with Southern culture of any of Robb’s original bannermen. Moreover, their naval and commercial presence at White Harbor would enhance North-Riverlands connections if properly exploited. 

As for Sansa, I’m not sure who I would handle. But one idea that does come to me is for Robb to settle Harrenhal on her – Harrenhal is going to be incredibly important for him holding the Riverlands from attacks from the south, so a Stark presence there will probably be necessary for making it actually perform.