Hello, Can you explain more deeply why Asha wanted Sea Dragon Point and the Stoney Shore? Or at least what the Iron Islands could do with these two places. SDP apparently has bogs, which is one of the places that has peat (useful for heating purposes). Also, do you have estimates how much more territory the Iron Islands would have if they got those two places? Would it double? I think that if Asha thought she had a shot at the Kingsmoot then these places must have potential use. Thanks.

In general, she chooses thoses areas because they’re coastal, and thus would be easier for Ironborn to reinforce and resupply in the event that the Northmen tried to take them back, and easier to get Ironborn to settle since they’re not trying to get fishermen to become fishermen, and because the Ironborn have held them in the past.

As to why those places specifically, Sea Dragon point likely belongs to House Glover (given its proximity to Deepwood Motte) and thus would be land that House Glover could transfer legally to the Ironborn, providing legitimacy to Asha’s conquest. Stony Shore, which the Ironborn occupied during the War of Five Kings, probably doesn’t have any other population than the fishing villages (because of the poor quality of the soil), and thus may indeed have been (temporarily) depopulated by Theon’s raids, which will make it easier for the Ironborn to continue to hold.

In terms of how much space, Asha describes them as “ten times larger than all the isles put together.” I estimate (*WARNING: A HISTORIAN IS DOING MATH*) the Iron Islands is about 16-25,000 square miles, that Sea Dragon Point is about 17,000 square miles, and the Stony Shore is maybe 20,000 square miles, so Asha is exaggerating somewhat, but the overall point isn’t wrong.

I think for a north putting together an economic development plan, a western fleet like you proposed is crucial. On the other hand, a fleet just sitting around doing nothing during peace loses money and there’s not much trade opportunities for a northern merchant fleet since westerner and reacher merchants are better positioned. So, trying to circumnavigate the planet is a must for any northern economic development plan in my opinion. It’s either the riches of the east or an unspoiled continent.

I don’t agree that “there’s not much trade opportunities for a northern merchant fleet.” If there’s enough trade opportunities for the hardscrabble Iron Islands to have an active port town doing business from southern Westeros and Essos both:

“The Myraham was a fat-bellied southron merchanter up from Oldtown, carrying wine and cloth and seed to trade for iron ore…A handful of Lordsport merchants had gathered to meet the ship. They shouted questions as the Myraham was tying up. “We’re out of Oldtown,” the captain called down, “bearing apples and oranges, wines from the Arbor, feathers from the Summer Isles. I have pepper, woven leathers, a bolt of Myrish lace, mirrors for milady, a pair of Oldtown woodharps sweet as any you ever heard…”

“…Theon was more interested in ships than gods. Among the masts of countless fishing boats, he spied a Tyroshi trading galley off-loading beside a lumbering Ibbenese cog with her black-tarred hull.”

“…She had surrendered her virtue at six-and-ten, to a beautiful blond-haired sailor on a trading galley up from Lys.”

then there’s no reason that the vast agricultural markets of the North just on the other side of the Flint Cliffs from Ironman’s Bay, wouldn’t find buyers from among the ships that sail the northern stretches of the Sunset Sea.

By contrast, trying to sail west across the Sunset Sea has historically been a fool’s venture:

“Strange tales like this are common at the edges of the world, however, and the Lonely Light stands farthest west of all the lands known to us. Many a bold mariner has sailed beyond the light of its beacon over the centuries, seeking the fabled paradise said to lie over the horizon, but the sailors who return (many do not) speak only of boundless grey oceans stretching on and on forever.”

Why is the North’s western shore so poorly defended against Ironborne? Seagard has its belltower and the Reach has watchtowers and the Shield Islands, but none such structures are ever mentioned for the North.

A couple reasons:

The North’s population is more interior than coastal, so the shore is less important than it is in the Westerlands or the Riverlands or the Reach.
The North had better defenses at various times – “Balon V Greyjoy,
called Coldwind, destroyed the feeble fleets of the King in the North…We have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father’s ships” – but have neglected them in recent centuries.
Even without those defenses, the Ironborn don’t do well trying to hold the North, in part because “ironborn lack the discipline to stand a charge of armored horse.”

How exactly did the Manderlys receive their fief in the North? Did some Stark King hear of their fate and take pity? Or were the Manderlys actively looking for new land? A House migrating from one Kingdom to another never happened before or since then, right?

As I’ve discussed here, here, and here, the Manderlys went into exile with a good bit of portable income and were looking for not just land to settle on but royal protection (they were for all intents and purposes exiled fugitives), and the Starks were looking for a House with ready income to take over the Wolf’s Den and solve the tricky problem of the security of their eastern border:

“A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!“

As for a House migrating, we’ve definitely seen some examples of this: the Blackwoods moved from the North to the Riverlands, and lots of Andal Houses would have moved from the Vale to the Riverlands to the Westerlands and the Reach.

What exactly is the geopolitical significance of the Three Sisters?It can’t be fishing rights, the Manderlys are doing fine in that regard while the Sistermen are better known for their shipwrecking. I also don’t remember reading about any attempted invasions by the Vale using the Sisters as a springboard. So why the 1000 year war?

It’s much more about naval control over the Bite than fishing rihgts, and the Worthless War came about in the wake of a series of naval conflicts between the North and the inhabitants of the Three Sisters:

“Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf’s Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea…During the wars between Winterfell and the Andal Kings of Mountain and Vale, the Old Falcon, Osgood Arryn, laid siege to the Wolf’s Den. His son, King Oswin the Talon, captured it and put it to the torch. Later, it fell under attack from the pirate lords of the Three Sisters and slavers out of the Stepstones. It was not until some thousand years before the Conquest, when the fugitive Manderlys came to the North and swore their oaths at the Wolf’s Den, that the problem of the defense of the White Knife—the river that provides access into the very heart of the North—was resolved with the creation of White Harbor.

…The last isles to be wedded to the Vale were the Three Sisters. For thousands of years, these islands had boasted their own cruel kings, pirates and raiders whose longships sailed the Bite, the narrow sea, and even the Shivering Sea with impunity, plundering and reaving as they would and returning to the Sisters laden with gold and slaves. These depredations finally led the Kings of Winter to send their own war fleets to seek dominion over the Sisters—for whoever holds the Three Sisters holds the Bite.”

So it’s absolutely the case that the Three SIsters *used* to be pirates and slavers, and shifted to becoming wreckers when more powerful forces cracked down on them, although they clearly still do a bit of piracy, because Stannis hanged twelve Sistermen for piracy when he was Master of Ships.

As for attempted invasions, well, where do you think Osgood and Oswin Arryn based and resupplied their ships from when they attacked the Wolf’s Den?

When Robb presents his terms to Cleos, he declares all the Stark Lands as well as “all the lands watered by the River Trident from the Golden Tooth to the Mountains of the Moon” as part of his new kingdom. Why the weird description for the Riverlands? Why not just “all Tully lands”? Does the specific wording include or exclude any fiefs, such as Harrenhal?

Good question!

If I had to guess, Robb’s terminology is based on a historic formulation of the boundaries of the Riverlands, which tended to be somewhat more fluid than those of other kingdoms.

Prior to the advent of modern surveying techniques, natural features tended to be used quite a bit as boundary markers – hence part of the reason for the Mexican-American War was that Mexico and the U.S disagreed whether the U.S/Mexico border was at the Rio Grande River or the Nueces River, or why France historically tried to expand its borders to the Alps, the Pyrenees, and the Rhine even though its linguistic borders are considerably to the west, and why the Germans tried to do the same for the territory between the Rhine and the Danube.

Moreover, the phrase that Robb uses is somewhat more complex: it’s the lands “watered by the River Trident and its vassal streams (emphasis mine).” To figure out what he means by this requires looking at a map:

Note that the Trident and its vassal streams snake up to that disputed territory between Greywater Watch and the Twins in the north, and significantly into the Westerlands territory up by Ashmark and Hornvale if you compare it to the political maps (hence why he’s also claiming the Golden Tooth), it might even include Wickenden in the Vale if you push if far enough.

The bigger issue is what about that territory between the Red Fork and the Narrow Sea south of the Trident? Well, arguably it’s “watered” by the eastern bank of the Red Fork from the Mummer’s Ford north to Riverrun along its western border and then again on the southern bank of the Red Fork from Riverrun to Darry, and then you have the Trident Proper which runs from Darry to Maidenpool all the way out to Cracklaw Point (which historically was something of a border territory). Harrenhal down to Stony Sept would be a bit tricky, since Harrenhal itself isn’t bordered by the Trident (although its lands probably are). Likewise, where does the waterline end: Antlers? Sow’s Horn? Duskendale? (It was once part of the Riverlands, after all.)

I think you’re correct that, if not for the Hornwood Crisis, the North probably could have rallied and defeated the Ironborn on land. That said, how would the North deal with the superior mobility the Ironborn have due to their longships when they have negligible naval power of their own?

Good question!

I think the answer is to look at where and how the North has defeated the Ironborn on land:

It was too late for that now, however. Theon had no choice but to lead Asha to Ned Stark’s solar. There, before the ashes of a dead fire, he blurted, “Dagmer’s lost the fight at Torrhen’s Square—”
“The old castellan broke his shield wall, yes,” Asha said calmly. “What did you expect? This Ser Rodrik knows the land intimately, as the Cleftjaw does not, and many of the northmen were mounted. The ironborn lack the discipline to stand a charge of armored horse. Dagmer lives, be grateful for that much. He’s leading the survivors back toward the Stony Shore.”

The sea was closer, only five leagues north, but Asha could not see it. Too many hills stood in the way. And trees, so many trees. The wolfswood, the northmen named the forest. Most nights you could hear the wolves, calling to each other through the dark. An ocean of leaves. Would it were an ocean of water.
Deepwood might be closer to the sea than Winterfell, but it was still too far for her taste.

If it were me, I would take the strand and put our longships to the torch before attacking Deepwood…

“My queen,” said Tristifer, “here we have the walls, but if we reach the sea and find that the wolves have taken our ships or driven them away …”
“… we die,“

Something flew from the brush to land with a soft thump in their midst, bumping and bouncing. It was round and dark and wet, with long hair that whipped about it as it rolled. When it came to rest amongst the roots of an oak, Grimtongue said, "Rolfe the Dwarf’s not so tall as he once was.” Half her men were on their feet by then, reaching for shields and spears and axes. They lit no torches either, Asha had time enough to think, and they know these woods better than we ever could. Then the trees erupted all around them, and the northmen poured in howling. Wolves, she thought, they howl like bloody wolves. The war cry of the north. Her ironborn screamed back at them, and the fight began.

And we had other help, unexpected but most welcome, from a daughter of Bear Island. Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. Greyjoy’s longships are burned or taken, her crews slain or surrendered…

The Ryswells and the Dustins had surprised the ironmen on the Fever River and put their longships to the torch….

Harren died at Moat Cailin. One of the bog devils shot him with a poisoned arrow…

In Moat Cailin he had taken to wearing mail day and night. Sore shoulders and an aching back were easier to bear than bloody bowels. The poisoned arrows of the bog devils need only scratch a man, and a few hours later he would be squirting and screaming as his life ran down his legs in gouts of red and brown.

Behind him were the camps, crowded with Dreadfort men and those the Ryswells had brought from the Rills, with the Barrowton host between them. South of Moat Cailin, another army was coming up the causeway, an army of Boltons and Freys marching beneath the banners of the Dreadfort. East of the road lay a bleak and barren shore and a cold salt sea, to the west the swamps and bogs of the Neck, infested with serpents, lizard lions, and bog devils with their poisoned arrows.

While the Ironborn are stronger at sea, the North is stronger on land, and the problem for the Ironborn is that the North is nothing but land. The Ironborn don’t have the numbers to occupy the North, and their soldiers don’t have the training or equipment needed to fight the greenlander way.

If it I was giving strategic advice, I would tell the Northmen to surrender the coasts after carrying off everything edible and burning the rest, retreat into the interior, let the Ironborn spread themselves thin by trying to occupy the North.

Then once the Ironborn are over-extended and as far from the sea as can be arranged, ambush their patrols and attack any force on the march, besiege every castle and starve them out, burn their ships and cut them off from the sea.

If the North had another 17000 potential recruits, why didn’t Robb call for some reinforcements ? Like when, Edmure gave Riverlords leave to return to their lands, Robb could have brought a few thousand men south to strengthen his depleted forces. Or he could have ordered them to descend on Moat Cailin from the North, while he, Greatjon & Bolton led the 3 divisions up the Causeway. That seems to have been the simpler solution, rather than the risky detour through the marshes he was planning.

There’s several factors:

Bringing up reinforcements doesn’t become relevant until the very end of AGOT, when Robb’s attempt to free his father by defeating the Lannisters and forcing a prisoner exchange fails, due to Joffrey killing Ned.
The leadership remaining in the North consist of Bran (9 years old), Maester Luwin (non-combatant), and Ser Rodrik Cassel, who is a better soldier than a general. In fact, Ser Rodrik will order reinforcements (the Wild Hares) to de-mobilize, then go haring off himself to deal with Ramsay, then shuttle back to Winterfell when Theon takes Winterfell. So there’s no one in the North who’s up for the job of calling the banners.
Speaking of Ramsay, the deaths of Lord Hornwood and his heir mean that the Hornwood lands spark a crisis, whereby the remaining lords of the North are divided by their competition to win the lands of House Hornwood. When Ramsay Snow abducts Lady Hornwood, this changes from a peaceful but distracting political contest into all-out war, as the Manderlys and the Boltons go to war, and Ser Rodrik goes to war to try to defuse the conflict.
Speaking of the Ironborn, the capture of Moat Cailin, Winterfell, Deepwood Motte, and Torrhen’s Square, along with the attack on the Stony Shore, make reinforcement practically impossible because the political nerve center of the North is paralyzed (so there’s nowhere to rally the banners to) and the main land bridge by which those reinforcements would march south across is cut off.
And then, to put the cherry on the sundae, Ramsay sacks and burns Winterfell, so that as far as anyone in the North knows, there is no Stark in Winterfell, and kills Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik, so that the not-particularly-great adult leadership that was left in the North is now completely gone.

Hey, so I was trying to make a political map of the North, but I am not sure about some things. Specifically,how should I map out the masterly houses like Glover and Tallhart, should I make their lands separate of House Starks, or a part of House Stark lands (masterly houses only cannot pass judgement or is there something else)? Do Stony Shore and Sea Dragon Point belong to Starks or does some vassal hold it in their name? Also, are Mountain Clan’s lands separate of Stark’s lands? Thanks!

Good question (and definitely send me a link to the map when you’re done)!

Re the Glovers and Tallharts: I would lean to separate, since they still have the right to tax and levy military support from those lands, and GRRM has talked about landed knights potentially being quite powerful. Maybe color them as alternating stripes between Stark grey and their own house color?

Re Stony Shore and Sea Dragon Point: WOIAF says that the Stony Shore was ruled by House Fisher, who became vassals of the Kings of Winter. We don’t know whether they survived the Ironborn incursions, but I would guess the lands are held by some vassal. Sea Dragon Point was once ruled by the Warg Kings before the Starks conquered them, but we don’t know who rules it now and whether they survived the Ironborn either.

Re the Mountain Clans: definitely separate. They are vassals of the Starks, but among the more independent given their distance and traditions.

What do people in the North do when Winter cones around besides try and survive?

Great question! I can hazard a few guesses as to some areas of activity, based on cultures that have short(er) growing seasons and long winters.

One would be handcrafts – Scandinavian farmers, for example, historically would often spend the winters building boats for sale to fishing villages (a practice known as beredskaparbete, which later gave its name to Sweden’s system of jobs for the unemployed) – so I wouldn’t be surprised if smallfolk in the North spent the long winter making new (or repairing old) farm equipment, housewares, clothing, and so on and so forth.

Another would be animal husbandry – European farmers in winter were advised to lop trees for fodder to help keep animals alive through the winter, for example, and in regions with lots of marginal land, animals would be herded from their normal fields to “preserved grass” land.

One that shows up a bunch in ASOIAF is story-telling: Old Nan’s “hearth tales” seem to be part of a practice of oral culture in the North that has preserved memories of the Old Night and similar ancient truths that the Maesters scoff at. While the North isn’t the only part of Westeros with a folk culture, I would imagine the tradition of story-telling is much deeper in the North than in other places, simply because they have so much time in the winters to gather together for warmth and while the time away.