Cast-amere and Cast-erly

Well… pretty much there was a theory on reddit that posited the Reynes as a bastard branch of the Casterlys, an idea whose link was included in the wonderful post of @joannalannister in her words for House Reyne. That was pretty much why I said it.

Also, when I spoke, I meant how Ellyn Reyne does resemble Barbrey Ryswell. Ellyn Reyne wanted to become a Lannister with much more intensity than anyone else recorded, like Barbrey and Theon wanted to be Starks above all.

Ah, I see. It’s a fine theory as it goes, the whole reversed arms thing, but the WOIAF I think is pretty strong evidence to the contrary. I’d also point out that we don’t know what the heraldry of the Casterlys was, and that if the connection was through the Casterlys, why would they have reversed the sigil of the Lannisters?

I don’t know if I would agree that Ellyn wanted to become a Lannister, exactly. She “had for years anticipated one day being the Lady of Casterly Rock,” and certainly pursued Tywald and Tion and even Tytos.

But Ellyn doesn’t show any of the signs of alienation from her original family that, say, Theon did. As “the Lady of Casterly Rock in all but name,” Ellyn made damn sure that House Reyne profited from her success with Tion. Hence “her brothers Roger and Reynard were ever at her side, and offices, honors, and lands were showered upon them, and upon her uncles, cousins, and nephews and nieces as well.” Likewise, when she was finally exiled from Casterly Rock, Ellyn promoted the fortunes of Houses Tarbeck and Reyne as much as she could, shaking down Tytos for as much gold as she could get, putting it in to Tarbeck Hall and its surrounding lands.

So I think of Ellyn as more self-possessed than Theon and less bitter than Barbrey. Which I think means that she didn’t necessarily want to be a Lannister, but rather wanted to be the Lady of Casterly Rock and the mother of the next Lord…regardless of whether this was as a Lannister or as a Reyne or as a Tarbeck.

What if Lady Ellyn had sisters who married…

What would have happened if the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion would have had outer support? With this I mean that the Reynes had claims to Casterly Rock older than the Lannisters themselves. Supposing than Ellyn Reyne would have had younger sisters who would have been capable of marrying one a Tyrell and another a Tully (or a Redwyne), how much would that have changed the outcome and even the beginning of the rebellion? Tywin relied on speed after all to defeat them, but supposing the Tyrells or Redwynes or Tullys would have been willing to meddle on Westerlands affairs (The Tyrells being eager with having a wide support, the Redwynes being the monopoly on the sea-trade and the Tullys still hurt for the broken betrothal of Celia) so, just speculation, really, because a web of alliances (other than the Reyne-Tarbeck themselves) may have been essential. And now that I think of it… did the Gardeners marry some Reyne to try overthrow the Lannister regime in some age before the Draconic Conquest?

Also, is Ellyn Reyne supposed to be an alter-ego of Barbrey Dustin more than one from Cersei? Both wanting to be their overlord’s family above all, but ending up hating them more than nothing in Westeros? One in the North, the other in the West

I don’t know what you mean by “claims to Casterly Rock older than the Lannisters themselves.” If you’re talking about Loreon the Lion, not only is that claim very much on the distaff side, but it doesn’t predate the Lannisters. I couldn’t find any mention of an alliance between the Reynes and Casterlys, for example.

As for outside support during the Rains, I think a house would have had to be reckless to the point of ambitious – Aegon V had already militarily intervened twice in the Westerlands, and there’s no reason he wouldn’t have gone for a third. But yes, it would have helped.

I don’t think Ellyn Reyne is an alter-ego of anyone. As the song goes…

Do you think the Reynes and Tarbecks had an actual chance to topple house Lannister, if Tywin wasn’t as ruthless and competent?

Yeah, probably. Especially from the WOIAF, their total and combined forces were quite substantial compared to the forces that House Lannister could throw together – especially if you remove Tywin’s contributions from the picture.

If I recall correctly from the extended Westerlands section, Tywin could pull together 3,500 men to fight the Reynes and Tarbecks, but the full might of House Reyne and their allies was more than 8,000 men.

So potentially, I could see a scenario where the Reynes are able to crush the Lannisters in the field and force Tytos to abdicate. The more difficult question is what they would have done after – governing after such a coup is a lot more difficult than most schemers realize.