I was surprised by your answer to a previous question, that Harrenhall would’ve made a good capital location for a Targaryen dynasty (sans curses) Can you elaborate on why? Were you suggesting it’s better spot than Kings Landing? Or just a good alternative? The only negative that came to me comparing the two is lack of ocean trade at Harrenhall.

My main issue with King’s Landing has to do more with Aegon’s decision to keep the Crownlands small, only absorbing a small part of the Riverlands and Stormlands, which had massive ramifications for the strength of the monarchy once the dragons died. To be fair, this involves a heavy dose of presentism, as Aegon had no idea that the dragons would die out.

However, Harrenhal does have some benefits:

It’s an already extant castle that’s big enough to hold the entire political class of the nation, and we know that there’s enough space there to hold “the fourth largest city of the kingdom.”
It still has ocean trade via the Blackwater Rush, and if you built a relatively short canal, you could have access via the Trident as well.
It’s more centrally located, which means travel and communication between the capital city and major centers of power out in the provinces would be faster for the more northwestern half of the kingdom. That should also cut down on inter-kingdom conflict more, because it would be impossible to attack another Great House without going through them first.
If the Riverlands plus Crownlands was the personal fiefdom of the monarchy, you’d deal with the weak monarchy and weak Riverlands problem, since royal government could ensure that the abundant natural resources of the region were fully utilized.

What do you think happened to Simon Strong and his grandsons? Executed by Aemond and Cole? Died as prisoners of Daemon or the Lads?

Something of a mystery, isn’t it? Something must have happened to them, because none of them inherited Harrenhal, and instead it reverted back to the crown and then was given to the Lothstons only twenty years later.

One thing that’s noticeable is that while Simon Strong is described as among the “dozen valuable hostages, amongst them Ser Simon and his grandsons” when Daemon captures Harrenhal, he doesn’t show up again when Aemond retakes the castle later. To me, that suggests that Simon et al. died in that period, so that probably puts Aemon and Cole out of the picture.

As to how, I’m going to guess disease as opposed to execution, since I think the latter would be more likely to come up in the text.

I have really enjoyed your thoughts on Thin Places in ASoIaF, and my questions chiefly relate to that concept.1: What evidence do you see that Harrenhal really is cursed, rather than simply being a uniquely difficult to manage fief that tends to bring it’s holders down, it being both enormous, subservient to a Lord Paramount, and also awarded directly by the monarchy. 2: Do you think that dragon fire may be particularly linked to the creation of Thin Places?

1. To be honest, it’s mostly Doylist logic – the law of conservation of narrative detail. Not only did GRRM take the time to write about a curse and a backstory of all of these houses which died out under horrible circumstances, but he also went out of his way in ASOIAF to show lords of Harrenhal dying horribly – Janos Slynt, Vargo Hoat, the Mountain, etc. etc. And it’s something he’s been very consistent about rather than changing his mind.

2. Only to the extent that dragonfire is involved in a concentration of violent death. I admit this theory isn’t perfect – what about all of the battlefields from the Dance or the Field or Fire? – but there’s also places like Hardhome or Asshai or Kadath or Carcossa where dragons don’t seem to be involved but weirdness is there.

Some queries about Ser Bonnifer Hasty- 1) What do you think about his idea on crime & punishment- “Sins can be forgiven, but crimes must be punished” ? 2) How generous was his land entitlement scheme? 3) By what right was he, a mere wartime peacekeeping force commander giving away land that belonged to Harrenhal i.e House Baelish?

Well, it’s a not-uncommon attitude within a medieval/early-modern religious context. One of the repercussions of an ideology that elevates the spiritual as the only important realm and the material as corrupt and sinful is a certain devaluation of the human body as a mere container for the soul. Thus, whatever you do to the body is far less important than whan what happens to the soul – this is the logic at the very heart of many different forms of religious violence, from the Massacre at Béziers during the Albigensian Crusade to the horrific reprisals of the Thirty Years War to the last days of the Spanish Inquisition.

I’ve discussed this here. It’s moderately generous, but not enough to pull any of them up to the status of a knight.

Baelish holds the land from the crown, and while that’s only technically true for most fiefdoms, Harrenhal is a special case because of the connection to Aegon the Conqueror.

Ser Bonifer Hasty was appointed castellan of Harrenhal by Queen Regent Cersei and thus ultimately by the authority of King Tommen, in Littlefinger’s absence.

How is Harrenhal administered? That is, does it actually owe fealty to Riverrun, or is it sworn directly to the IT? I know it’s physically in the Riverlands, but it seems like there’s a lot of Iron Throne interference regarding who gets the castle, instead of leaving it to Riverrun (i.e. it seems to always be a reward to a family aligned with the crown; the only other examples I can think of, of the IT just giving a castle outside of the Crownlands to someone, were spoils taken from traitors).

It’s definitely sworn to the Riverlands, but it’s something of a special case because it used to belong to House Hoare until that line was cut off, Aegon the Conqueror has right of conquest over it, and he started a custom by giving it out as a reward to one of his followers, specifically Dragonstone’s master of arms, Quenton Qoherys. (Although he did give the Tullys of Riverrun the Lord Paramouncy and married them into House Qoherys)

House Qoherys ended with the death-by-gelding of Gargon the Guest in 37AC, who had no legitimate issue due to his preference for the First Night. And thus, it reverted back to the Crown. (House Qoherys = total of 37 years)

A few years later, Maegor gave it to Lucas Harroway (who had probably previously been the Lord of Harroway’s Town), who held it only until 44AC when Maegor had all of House Harroway executed for the crime of Alys’ supposed infidelity. (House Harroway = 2-7 years)

He then gave it to House Towers after a melee that killed 23 knights, including Walton Towers. The Towers’ line didn’t last that long, only going for two generations after Walton, and thus it reverted once again. (House Towers = maybe 60 years?)

Jaehaerys gave it to Lyonel Strong, who shared his learning, despite the scandal of his relative Ser Lucamore’s gelding. The Strongs seem to have held Harrenhal for about thirty years (assuming that 30 years = a generation, they would have gotten it around 100 AC), before they died out due to the fire and Cregan Stark. (House Strong = probably 30 years, but could be more, depending on how long the Towers lived)

Harrenhal then reverted to the Crown for about twenty years, when it was given to Lucas “the Pander” Lothston in 151 AC in exchange for marrying Aegon IV’s mistress (and later allowing said mistress and his daughter to have the grossest threesome of all time with Aegon IV in exchange for the Handship). The Lothstons are the longest-running owners of Harrenhal, possibly because they steered into the curse: Lucas survived until at least 178. He was succeeded by Manfryd o’ the Black Hood. (My theory about that name is that Manfryd had a sideline as a “mystery knight” who wore a black hood, and did some really nasty things while in disguise) Manfryd’s heir was (probably his son) Manfred, who betrayed Daemon Blackfyre in 196. He died sometime before 211, when Danelle Lothston took over.

Danelle seems to have been the last of the line – which may be why the rumors of her sorcery all revolve around Bathory-like attempts to extend her youth and life – and despite her previous loyalty to the Targaryens, was brought down sometime between 221-233 AC when her black magic became public knowledge. I’m guessing towards the end of that range, given that Ben Blackthumb smithed for Lothstons and is still alive in 299. (House Lothston = ~80 years)

For their part in bringing down Danelle Lothston, the Whents were given Harrenhal by Maekar I, and lasted ~70 years. Might have lasted longer, but Shella’s four sons all died before her, as did her husband. (House Whent = ~70 years)

And then it reverted to the Crown again, and then was given to the Slynts, who lasted all of three months, and then to the Baelishes.

Chapter-by-Chapter Analysis: Arya X, ACOK

Why do you think Harrenhal was left without a lord between the end of the Dance and the Lothstons getting it in 251? From the royal family’s perspective, what could have been done with it?

Between 131 when Larys Strong was executed, and 151 when Lucas “the Pander” Lothston was made Lord of Harrenhal in exchange for marrying Falaena Stokeworth and probably claiming Jeyne as his own daughter, Harrenhal was royal property, just like Summerhall or Dragonstone or King’s Landing.

Aegon III and his brother Viserys the Hand were probably focused on using Harrenhal’s revenues to help rebuild the royal finances – after all, while Tyland Lannister did send portions of the treasury to Casterly Rock, Oldtown, and the Iron Bank, we never find out what happened to that money and whether the crown got any of that back, and a lot got spent by both the greens and blacks during the war.

The year 131 and after was a bad time – the aftermath of the Dance, an especially hard and long winter, a Winter Fever epidemic, the political dysfunction of the regency, the Red Kraken raiding in the west, etc. When Aegon III took over in 136, his policy of “full bellies and dancing bears” would have required revenue to work, and someone as tight-fisted as Viserys would have looked to the incomes of Harrenhal as a way to make the books balance.

By 151, there had been 20 years of recovery, and Viserys could afford to give away this royal favor to hush up his son’s indiscretions.