Tag: asoiaf meta

Is the sustained Medieval-Rennaissance divide between Westeros and the Free Cities realistic given their geographical proximity and commercial interaction? Are their any similar situations in history?

It’s absolutely realistic – the Renaissance as an intellectual and cultural and economic movement overlapped with what we think of as the Late Medieval Age, which ran from 1301 to 1500. Michelangelo was 12 when the Wars of the Roses ended; Leonardo da Vinci was born two years before they started (and a year before the Hundred Years War ended) and outlived them. 

Edward III fought the battles of Crecy and Poiters with gold borrowed from the Bardi and the Peruzzi bankers of Florence, and his failure to repay in 1345 was one of the reasons why, a generation later, Contessina de Bardi married Cosimo de Medici, who used her family’s reputation to help make himself Florence’s “king in all but name.”

How is Harrenhal administered? That is, does it actually owe fealty to Riverrun, or is it sworn directly to the IT? I know it’s physically in the Riverlands, but it seems like there’s a lot of Iron Throne interference regarding who gets the castle, instead of leaving it to Riverrun (i.e. it seems to always be a reward to a family aligned with the crown; the only other examples I can think of, of the IT just giving a castle outside of the Crownlands to someone, were spoils taken from traitors).

It’s definitely sworn to the Riverlands, but it’s something of a special case because it used to belong to House Hoare until that line was cut off, Aegon the Conqueror has right of conquest over it, and he started a custom by giving it out as a reward to one of his followers, specifically Dragonstone’s master of arms, Quenton Qoherys. (Although he did give the Tullys of Riverrun the Lord Paramouncy and married them into House Qoherys)

House Qoherys ended with the death-by-gelding of Gargon the Guest in 37AC, who had no legitimate issue due to his preference for the First Night. And thus, it reverted back to the Crown. (House Qoherys = total of 37 years)

A few years later, Maegor gave it to Lucas Harroway (who had probably previously been the Lord of Harroway’s Town), who held it only until 44AC when Maegor had all of House Harroway executed for the crime of Alys’ supposed infidelity. (House Harroway = 2-7 years)

He then gave it to House Towers after a melee that killed 23 knights, including Walton Towers. The Towers’ line didn’t last that long, only going for two generations after Walton, and thus it reverted once again. (House Towers = maybe 60 years?)

Jaehaerys gave it to Lyonel Strong, who shared his learning, despite the scandal of his relative Ser Lucamore’s gelding. The Strongs seem to have held Harrenhal for about thirty years (assuming that 30 years = a generation, they would have gotten it around 100 AC), before they died out due to the fire and Cregan Stark. (House Strong = probably 30 years, but could be more, depending on how long the Towers lived)

Harrenhal then reverted to the Crown for about twenty years, when it was given to Lucas “the Pander” Lothston in 151 AC in exchange for marrying Aegon IV’s mistress (and later allowing said mistress and his daughter to have the grossest threesome of all time with Aegon IV in exchange for the Handship). The Lothstons are the longest-running owners of Harrenhal, possibly because they steered into the curse: Lucas survived until at least 178. He was succeeded by Manfryd o’ the Black Hood. (My theory about that name is that Manfryd had a sideline as a “mystery knight” who wore a black hood, and did some really nasty things while in disguise) Manfryd’s heir was (probably his son) Manfred, who betrayed Daemon Blackfyre in 196. He died sometime before 211, when Danelle Lothston took over. 

Danelle seems to have been the last of the line – which may be why the rumors of her sorcery all revolve around Bathory-like attempts to extend her youth and life  – and despite her previous loyalty to the Targaryens, was brought down sometime between 221-233 AC when her black magic became public knowledge. I’m guessing towards the end of that range, given that Ben Blackthumb smithed for Lothstons and is still alive in 299. (House Lothston = ~80 years)

For their part in bringing down Danelle Lothston, the Whents were given Harrenhal by Maekar I, and lasted ~70 years. Might have lasted longer, but Shella’s four sons all died before her, as did her husband. (House Whent = ~70 years) 

And then it reverted to the Crown again, and then was given to the Slynts, who lasted all of three months, and then to the Baelishes. 

Do you know which road is connected to the King’s Gate, Dragon Gate, and Old Gate of King’s Landing? I know 1) Lion Gate/Goldroad 2) River Gate/Southern Kingsroad and Roseroad 3) Iron Gate/Rosby Road 4) Gate of the Gods/ Northern Kingsroad. The other 3 elude me. Any ideas?

You’re right, it’s a bit confusing. The King’s Gate is connected to the Tourney Grounds, but it looks like there’s a road leading west, which I would guess leads along the Rush to the ford nearest to the city as an alternative to using the ferries. 

According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, the Dragon’s Gate is connected to the Kingsroad, but that’s contradicted by the info about the Gate of the Gods. There is a mention in the Princess and the Queen that during the riots, “Rhaenyra and a small band of followers slipped out through the Dragon Gate, intending to make their way up the coast to Duskendale.” Which suggests that there might be a direct road from Duskendale to King’s Landing as well as the Rosby Road. 

The Old Gate, being in between the Gate of the Gods and the Iron Gate and thus in between the Kingsroad and the Rosby Road, is a puzzle. My guess is that there may be or have been a direct route to Maidenpool from King’s Landing.

In your EDPs, you recommend city charters in every one of the regions (except maybe the Iron Islands). The question is: Why would any Lord Paramount (or the King) encourage the creation of such charters? You wrote in response to one ask (long ago) that these charters made the residents “free burghers rather than serfs or vassals”, “the city/town and its residents were no longer part of a feudal fief, and thus didn’t have to pay feudal taxes”, etc.

There’s a couple reasons. 

First and foremost, money. While the residents themselves don’t pay feudal taxes (or sometimes fewer of them, or only to the liege lord rather than the whole chain of subinfeudation), the people who travel to the town aren’t afforded the same luxury. And since cities are hubs for trade, there’s a lot of money to be made from import duties, port fees, warehousing fees, and other taxes. 

Second, goods and services. Aside from your village blacksmiths or village carpenters or whatever, the vast majority of peasants are engaged in the production of agricultural goods and other raw materials. Cities, on the other hand, is where you get specialized manufacturing on larger scales – textiles, metalworks, glass, etc. A domestic source for these kind of goods means that it’s cheaper to get those kinds of goods for yourself, and it means a more favorable balance of trade for the goods you can’t get at home. So to put your military cap on for a minute, if you’re trying to equip an army, cities with their more advanced economies are invaluable. 

Third, political organization. While this is potentially a double-edged sword for feudal lords, one of the advantages of having cities is that they govern themselves to some extent. This means that the lord, who already has to administer a fief with an extremely limited staff, doesn’t have to spend time governing them and has someone on the ground they can turn to enforce laws for them. For example, you’re probably going to be able to raise more in taxes (or payments in lieu of taxes) than you would from the peasants under your own control and with less effort, because people are more willing to pay when they’re taxing themselves. Likewise, a city or town militia means higher-quality infantry – at the very least, you know they’ve done some drilling and have standard equipment – than your standard peasant levy. 

I have come questions regarding the permanent parliament-like Great Council. 1) How would it be organized? Do only the Lords Paramount get seats, or their primary vassals as well? 2) Would these Lords be required to attend in person, or will representatives suffice? 3) Would this Council be held on a daily basis? 4) Can someone get a seat on both the Small and Great Councils?

1. Don’t know, exactly. Tradition so far is that it’s all of the lords in Westeros, full stop. 

2. Well, traditionally they have, but you can’t look after your fief and attend, so if there were a permanent system, you’d need some mechanism of sending a representative – probably a younger brother or son or an uncle or cousin. 

3. Probably not. If medieval to early modern Parliaments are any judge, they’d meet for a couple of months (fifty days being the minimum under the Triennial Act of 1641) out of the year, because people need to travel to get there and back, see their families, etc.

4. Well, if someone on the Small Council is a lord by right as opposed to by courtesy, they have a right to sit on the Great Council. 

Does the “Right of Pit and Gallows” give lords the authority to decide the law in their holdings, like a modern legislature, or merely the authroity to interpet continent-wide Westerosi law on a disgressionary basis, like a modern judge?

Here’s what we know – the right of pits and gallows is the right to imprison and execute, respectively. How the lords execute that right is unknown. 

We know two other things of importance: first, we know that liege lords can act as courts of appeal, and the king as the supreme court, because we see that in Eddard XI. Second, we know from the WOIAF that Jaehaerys I established a single royal law code, and if it exists, it must be used somehow. 

So here’s my best guess: maesters in the Citadel are educated in the law from Jaehaerys’ code and the various precedents of interpretation. They advise the lord as to what the law is (and depending on the lord, they might be the judge in all but name) but don’t have the power to make the lord follow it. (Although, as the keepers of the ravens, they do have the power to potentially inform on their lord…) However, a decision that violates the code might well be reversed by that lord’s liege lord, because it’s technically treason and would (if found out about) bring the wrath of the Iron Throne down upon the lord might their liege who failed to uphold the king’s laws. 

On the other hand, that all depends on whether anyone with influence gets the word out. If a lord decides to hang a common peasant who the law says shouldn’t be hung, the chances of a successful appeal or reproach to the liege lord are extremely slim, unless some other knight or lord makes it an issue. (For example, if a lord hangs another knight or lord’s peasant (like Dake from Sworn Sword), or the peasant in question happens to be a servant of someone important who takes offense) A merchant or very rich peasant might have enough money to pay a maester to draft a formal complaint or to bribe the liege lord into hearing their case, so that’s riskier. A knight or lord, and now you may very well be talking about either an appeal or a rebellion. 

Why does Randyll Tarly mete out a far more severe punishment to a thief for “stealing from the seven” one moment, and then disparage the authority of the Seven’s emissary, the High Sparrow, as the “twitterings of sparrows” the next? Is he merely towing the Tyrell line?

At bedrock, Randyll Tarly is a fundamentalist when it comes to the very specific worldview of the military aristocrat, and everything else subordinates to that. Hence why he would brutally execute a kinslayer, but still threatens to murder his own son because he thinks he’ll be a weak lord. 

So Tarly is definitely a follower of the Seven – the Smith is at the bottom, the Warrior on top of him, in obedience to the Father, and the rest handle women’s matters and death – but he’s not particularly pious, because that’s what septons and women are supposed to do while he’s busy chopping people’s heads off. 

When he looks at the High Sparrow, he sees an up-jumped commoner who took the title by force from men from the right class, who’s overturned hundreds of years of tradition and royal authority in assuming powers that rightfully belong only the King, and who’s encouraging rebellion and the disruption of the feudal system. So he’d happily cut the man’s head off, make the next High Sparrow absolve him of the sin, wash his hands, and consider himself entirely in the right. 

Teddyballgame Asks:

What were Griff and Young Griff up to for the 12 years before Tyrion joins them? Hanging out on the Shy Maid, aimlessly sailing up and down the Rhoyne? 

 Varys says at one point that “[Young Griff] has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets,” so it does seem like Young Griff spent a good deal of time on the Rhoyne living and working as a fisherman while being educated. However, given his language skills, it’s quite likely that he spent a good deal of time working in the coastal trade around Pentos, Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys, although he seems to have avoided Volantis and Slaver’s Bay.

You mentioned in a recent post that you though Varys and Illyrio had been lovers? Can you expand on that?

I don’t have a huge amount of evidence for this, but Varys and Illyrio share a bond of trust and partnership that has endured for decades and across oceans, which is pretty rare in ASOIAF. 

So one of the things that struck me in Tyrion I of ADWD is this passage that comes immediately after Tyrion meets Illyrio as a “friend of Varys the Spider”:

Beneath his window six cherry trees stood sentinel around a marble pool, their slender branches bare and brown. A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo’s blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble, though his sword shimmered like true steel.

And then in Tyrion II we get this exchange that gives context to what it represents:

“…even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

“…How is it that the Spider became so dear to you?“

“We were young together, two green boys in Pentos.”

“Varys came from Myr.”

“So he did. I met him not long after he arrived, one step ahead of the slavers. By day he slept in the sewers, by night he prowled the rooftops like a cat. I was near as poor, a bravo in soiled silks, living by my blade. Perhaps you chanced to glimpse the statue by my pool? Pytho Malanon carved that when I was six-and-ten. A lovely thing, though now I weep to see it.”

“Age makes ruins of us all. I am still in mourning for my nose. But Varys …”

“In Myr he was a prince of thieves, until a rival thief informed on him. In Pentos his accent marked him, and once he was known for a eunuch he was despised and beaten. Why he chose me to protect him I may never know, but we came to an arrangement. Varys spied on lesser thieves and took their takings. I offered my help to their victims, promising to recover their valuables for a fee. Soon every man who had suffered a loss knew to come to me, whilst city’s footpads and cutpurses sought out Varys … half to slit his throat, the other half to sell him what they’d stolen. We both grew rich, and richer still when Varys trained his mice.”

I found it interesting that the symbol of Illyrio’s past is a depiction of male beauty – clearly, back in the day, Illyrio was enough of a hottie to inspire sculptors to work pro-bono, since he was only “a bravo in spoiled silks” back then. And Illyrio thinks of Varys’ “dearness” as associated with that youthful beauty, of being youths together. 

image

(credit to Pojypojy)

Now, it’s could all be totally platonic, but it’s not like there isn’t a history of homosocial and homoromantic relationships between young men in Renaissance city-states. And there’s something about the way that Illyrio says “why he chose me to protect him I may never know” that reminds me of people in long-term relationships who talk about not knowing what their partner saw in them in the beginning. 

And if we’re going by the usual GRRM metrics of what would the most tragic possible outcome be, imagine this scenario. Varys and Illyrio are lovers, and trust each other implicitly. Indeed, so self-sacrificing is Varys that he elevates Illyrio to wealth and power to the point where Illyrio gets married to the Prince’s cousin, and Varys even overlooks Illyrio’s passion for Sera. 

But then Varys executes the greatest scheme in their careers, the one that actually means something to him because of the possibility of producing the perfect prince,  and he gives over the royal baby he smuggled out of King’s Landing into the hands of the one person he trusts in the world. And Illyrio, out of love for the other woman, replaces that baby with his own son. What more profound betrayal can you imagine?