seguemarran Asks:

How come that the boundaries of the old kingdoms and family lands in Westeros seem to be so unchangeable? Has there ever been something like a dynastic union in order to enlarge family dominions? If, for instance (not interested in this particular speculation), Sansa came to be the only heir to the North, the Riverlands and then married Robin Arryn, wouldn’t that make a huge kingdom then united by her children? Thank you!

I don’t think it’s accurate that the boundaries are unchangeable – the histories of the various kingdoms from WOIAF show the opposite, with the borders of the various kingdoms flowing hither and yon repeatedly throughout history. In addition to the gradual and often painful process of the unification of each of the Seven Kingdoms from the hundreds of petty kingdoms that once existed, we know of a good deal of back-and-forth. The Durrandon conquest of the Crownlands and the Riverlands, the Ironborn’s conquest of much of the west coast of Westeros and the Hoare King’s conquest of the Riverlands, Gyles III Gardener who conquered most of the Stormlands before falling prey to tall poppy syndrome, the North’s attempts to conquer the Sisters and the Fingers, etc.

As to your question about dynastic union, there’s plenty of internal examples: the Stark’s dynastic marriages to the Barrow Kings, Garlan II Gardener marrying into the Hightowers and gaining Oldtown for the Reach, the dynastic union that allowed Meryn III to successfully incorporate the Arbor into the Reach, and so on.

However, there is a Westerosi custom that says that one man shouldn’t control more than one great seat of power, both out of respect for the balance of power, and the feudal limitations of trying to administer geographically separate fiefdoms. That likely has limited the reach and extent of dynastic marriages.

Concerning Dorne’s Export Commodities: What’s the deal with Sandsilk? Why are they the only westerosi nation in the silk fabric sector? They obviously don’t grow the raw silk themselves, meaning they have to import it from the east. This puts them in competition with the 3 Daughters, yet we never hear of the Dornish being pulled into their endless trade wars. Could you please give your thoughts on the matter? Thank you.

Why do you assume the Dornish don’t produce their own silk? If mulberry can grow in India, South Africa, Iran, etc. it can probably grow in Dorne. Given that Dornish silk techniques are distinctive enough to be recognized on sight – “painted, not sewn. The Dornish paint their silks, I’ve heard” – and have their own distinct name, I’d lean towards them producing it.

So I don’t think they’re competitors with the Free Cities, I think they’re business partners. Dorne sells wine, peppers, citrus fruit, and sand-silk and they buy dyes, spices, textiles, etc. from the Free Cities.

As to why the Dornish are the only Westerosi who have a silk industry, my guess would be that, as silk is otherwise found in Essos (it can be bought in Qarth but given the city’s commercial focus is likely a middleman, it’s manufactured in Naath, and given that the Silk Road is one of the roads that connect western Essos with Yi Ti is likely also manufactured there), it was brought over by those Rhoynar artisans we hear of from Nymeria’s Conquest.

Can the Riverlords/landers really have hated the Durrandons that much to be so thick when Harwyn invaded?! Longships CARRIED unmolested to the Blue Fork, HIDING in castles while their lands & people suffer, joining Hoare AFTER that & his brutality to Rivers & the Blackwoods (plus historical enmity), attacking Stormlanders of own accord, missing Harwyn ≠ Harmund(s) – that he would really allow them to be independent & “freed” them out of the goodness of his heart … THE IRONBORN!

Yeah, pretty much.

And so they would remain for more than three centuries, though the riverlords rose against Storm’s End at least once each generation. A dozen pretenders from as many houses would adopt the style of River King or King of the Trident and vow to throw off the yoke of the stormlanders. Some even succeeded…for a fortnight, a moon’s turn, even a year. But their thrones were built on mud and sand, and in the end a fresh host would march from Storm’s End to topple them and hang the men who’d presumed to sit upon them. Thus ended the brief inglorious reigns of Lucifer Justman (Lucifer the Liar), Marq Mudd (the Mad Bard), Lord Robert Vance, Lord Petyr Mallister, Lady Jeyne Nutt, the bastard king Ser Addam Rivers, the peasant king Pate of Fairmarket, and Ser Lymond Fisher, Knight of Oldstones, along with a dozen more…

As the ironborn moved up and down the rivers, reaving and raiding as they pleased, a bold young knight named Samwell Rivers, a natural son of Tommen Tully, Lord of Riverrun, assembled a small host and met King Harwyn on the Tumblestone, but his lines shattered…Lord Tully abandoned Riverrun without a fight, fleeing with all his strength to join the host gathering at Raventree Hall under Lady Agnes Blackwood and her sons. But when Lady Agnes advanced upon the ironborn, her belligerent neighbor Lord Lothar Bracken fell upon her rear with all his strength and put her men to flight.

…Many of the riverlords had joined the ironmen by then. Under the command of the Lords Goodbrook, Paege, and Vypren, they slipped across the Blackwater and fell upon the slowmoving baggage train before it reached the river, putting King Arrec’s rear guard to flight and seizing his supplies. Thus it was a stumbling, starving host of stormlanders who finally faced Harwyn Hardhand at Fairmarket, where Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and a score of other riverlords had joined him.

House Durrandon had failed to establish any kind of legitimate claim to the Riverlands and clearly lacked any support aside from their Blackwood kin and a few other houses. By contrast, the Brackens had every reason to want a change of government – the Brackens had been loyal to the Teague Kings and wanted vengeance against the Blackwoods who had betrayed the Teagues to the Storm Kings.

And clearly the Brackens weren’t alone – it’s quite likely that they were joined by other former Teague loyalists (and Seven worshippers) to fight a dynasty they viewed as foreign invaders.

So I was just thinking about ASOIAF in the bath, and I was wondering what Jeyne Poole was doing between the time Ned’s household guards were killed and when she was sent North to be “Arya”? She was probably a prisoner, but I have no idea where she was, or what was happening to her. I don’t know if this is something you would know, but you seem to know a lot of things about the books, so I figured I’d ask you.

Putting this below the cut because it’s gross as hell.

Jeyne Poole was “given” to LIttlefinger in AGOT:

Queen Cersei looked at each of the councillors in turn. “I won’t have Sansa fretting needlessly. What shall we do with this little friend of hers, my lords?”

Lord Petyr leaned forward. “I’ll find a place for her.”

“Not in the city,” said the queen.

“Do you take me for a fool?”

The queen ignored that. “Ser Boros, escort this girl to Lord Petyr’s apartments and instruct his people to keep her there until he comes for her. Tell her that Littlefinger will be taking her to see her father, that ought to calm her down. I want her gone before Sansa returns to her chamber.”

When Jeyne arrives for her wedding to Ramsay in ADWD, we find out that:

“I was told that you’d know how to please a man. Was that a lie?”

“N-no, my lord. I was t-trained.”

…What was it the girl had said, before the godswood? They all said that I was pretty. She was not pretty now. He could see a spiderweb of faint thin lines across her back where someone had whipped her. “… she is beautiful, so … so beautiful.”

“I’m a good girl,” Jeyne whimpered. “They trained me.”

So Littlefinger took her to one of his brothels and had her tortured so that she would “willingly” train as a prostitute and take up Arya’s place later on. Which is one of many reasons that I can’t wait for Sansa to destroy him as the prophecy foretells.

Chapter-by-Chapter Analysis: Arya I, ASOS

“Do you know where we’re going?” Gendry asked her. “North,” said Arya. Hot Pie peered around uncertainly. “Which way is north?” Synopsis: Arya and Gendry and Hot Pie try to make good on their escape from Harrenhal. It is more difficult than initially expected. SPOILER WARNING: This chapter analysis, and all following, will contain spoilers for all Song of Ice and Fire novels and Game of Thrones…

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Does House Arryn have any lands, either direct or through a vassal house, on the western side of the Mountains of the Moon (excluding the area west of Wickenden? I’m particularly interested in the region of the SW corner of the Bite? Various sources (Wiki, ridiculous WorldoIaF maps) indicate that it belongs to the Arryns, yet my common sense and the canon history of the region (pre-Conquest, through the Targ’s reign and the novels themselves) all point to this being near impossible. (1)Thoughts?

Continuation of my Q about the SW corner of the Bite: (2) If this region belonged to the Tullys, would it be a good location for a port town in the context of your Economic Development Plan for the Riverlands? (3) If it is House Arryn’s *cough!, would it be worth the trouble to get your hands on the lands?

1. I’m assuming you mean that strip of land along the coast immediately south of the Sisters, and not the part of the Riverlands along the kingsroad (which the Valemen tried to capture during the reign of Rolland II Arryn, who was defeated and later beheaded by Tristifer V Mudd).

It’s a bit tricky, because that land doesn’t always exist, depending on the map. (Incidentally, the World of Ice and Fire map of the Vale is completely rubbish – somehow putting the Mountains of the Moon smack-dab on top of the Vale proper, to the east of the Bloody Gate) Some of the various book maps, for example, as well as Tear’s fan map (which GRRM endorsed pre-Lands of Ice and Fire), show the mountains coming up right to the coast as opposed to having this decent stretch of level ground.

Now, I don’t think it’s that impossible for this land (if it exists) to Arryn rather than Tully – for one thing, it’s substantially to the east of the Mountains of the Moon, which seems to have been the historical boundary between the Riverlands and the Vale. It’s also really close to the Sisters and the northernmost Fingers, suggesting that historically those lands would have been in the orbit of either the Sunderlands or the Coldwaters or the Belmores or the Lynderlys or the Corbrays.

2. As a port…eh. It’s got a couple problems in that White Harbor and the Sisters are already-established competitors really close by, so you’re going to struggle to get off the ground. Exporting your goods into the Vale itself is going to either involve sailing all the way around the coast, in which case why not cut out the middleman and sell to Gulltown directly, or an incredibly expensive and risky mountain portage. If instead you want to export to the south or west, you’re going to run into some pretty steep rent-seeking from the Riverlords (especially the Freys if you want to access Seagard’s port), and it’s not really that much of a time saving compared to just going to White Harbor and taking the Kingsroad all the way down.

3. It honestly depends on how productive these potentially non-existent lands are. The Riverlands aren’t exactly wanting for farmland, and they have easier ways to access the Narrow Sea through Maidenpool and Saltpans and the like. And it would be very hard to hang onto them, because they could be pretty easily cut off by a force landing from the Sisters.

Why do you think that destroying the Sept of Baelor would be worse than the Red Wedding? What would the consequences of destroying the Sept in Westeros?

Because for anyone who believes in the Seven, and indeed the majority of Westerosi do, the Great Sept of Baelor has been the center of the Faith for ~150 years. It’s associated with the closest thing the Faith has to a saint, Baelor the Blessed, who is known to the smallfolk as Baelor the Beloved.

The Red Wedding is an attack on men, albeit one that violates the laws of both gods and men. The destruction of the Great Sept would be an attack on the gods themselves, the most impious action imaginable. And everyone inside is going to be a holy martyr.

As for the consequences, I think they’d be absolutely lethal to the legitimacy of the regime. You’re probably going to see a new revolt of the Faithful, as all of the Poor Fellows and Warrior’s Sons who survive the explosion (and keep in mind, there’s a lot of them out in the Riverlands atm) rise up, probably spearheaded by Bonifer Hasty’s Holy Hundred in command of Harrenhal. And you’ll likely see substantial defections to any alternative monarch.

Krim here, are you really suggesting a pre-modern abolition of monarchies for large nation states and replacing them with a fully representative people’s assembly? Would that realistically be feasible during such troubled eras in history, RL or Westeros?

Let me tell you a story about my ancestor. His name was Adam Attewell, he was a London butcher, and in the 14th century, he joined an illegal organization created by John Ball, known as the Great Society, dedicated to the proposition that peasants should be free and equal people under the law, and that the land belonged to the man who works it. And when Wat Tyler rose up, here’s what Adam did:

When I say Team Smallfolk 4 Life, I mean it.

Could Rickon really have lifted an old rusted iron sword from the crypts? Aren’t they really heavy?

This is a fantasy/genre/movie misconception.

Swords are not heavy, contrary to every D&D equipment section ever, because IRL they are relatively thin pieces of metal meant to cut things. Even the heaviest swords, those giant two-hand swords that people used to hack through pike formations and cut the legs off of horses, weigh less than 7 pounds. Your average sword weighs more like 2.5-3.5 pounds. Rickon Stark could certainly lift one.

Control would be a different issue. Having held my fair share of swords when I was a kid, it wasn’t difficult to lift one, but it was very difficult to use in an effective fashion, both because kids don’t have great hand-eye coordination to begin with, nor do they have the proper leverage due to their height, weight, length of arms, etc.

So I would imagine Rickon would find said sword very unwieldy. He would be dragging it along the ground, it would catch and snag on everything, he would probably drop it a lot, and any swings would go wildly off course and quite likely cause him to fall over.

This may be my most nerdy post ever.

Why is Barbrey Dustin the Lady of Barrowton when she was born a Ryswell and the title came with her husband? He must have had an heir, even if they didn’t have children? A cousin mabye, or someone with a claim? Just like before Jon Arryn had a child, there were some possible heirs. And if his marriage to Lysa would have been childless, Lysa would not be the Lady of the Vale, Harry the heir would have become Lord of the Vale, right?

To quote myself:

First, there probably aren’t any Dustins. She and Willam never had any children, and there’s no mention of brothers or cousins or nephews or the like. So I’m guessing there’s no close claim to Barrowton.

Second, Lady Dustin’s kin are powerful. The Ryswells have a lot of horses, which means they have a lot of heavy cavalry compared to other houses. And the Rills are a pretty large territory. There are also a lot of Ryswells, relatively speaking, as Lord Ryswell has three sons and a number of nephews besides. Chances are, one of those Ryswell sons is Lady Dustin’s heir, so challenging Lady Dustin means you challenge Lord Ryswell too.

Third, never discount personality. Lady Dustin is hard as nails, she’s been ruling Barrowton for a long time, and she’s got the support of her own people and the vassal houses of Houses Dustin and Ryswell. So dislodging her is going to mean a fight.

My guess is, Lord Eddard preferred to keep the status quo. If Lady Dustin is a good ruler, and a Ryswell is going to inherit, why alienate two powerful families on behalf of some claimant who doesn’t have what it takes to take Barrowton from her?

Also, given the proximity of the Rills to the Barrowlands, and my own theory that Barrowton is a large livestock market and the Rills are a major center of horse-breeding, I think there are very long-standing relationship between the Ryswells and the Dustins indeed.

So it may well be that the Ryswells are the closest kin to the Dustins.