Hey I loved your “Politics of the Westerlands” series. Had Aerys died at Duskendale do you think Tywin would have succeeded in wedding Rhaegar to Cersei? If so how would it have affected the politics of Westeros? The Southern Ambitions?

Good question!

I think the politics would have been quite complicated – on the one hand, Tywin has been Hand for 15 years, he represents stability and competency in government, he’s the Crown’s major creditor, he’s got the army in hand de facto. It would be rather difficult for Rhaegar to refuse him in the moment.

On the other hand, Tywin’s power is in Rhaegar’s powers to dispose of, simply by naming someone else as Hand. (Indeed, if Rhaegar is really Machiavellian, he could publicly blame Tywin for causing Aerys’ death and really go to town on him.)

On a third hand, it’s not clear how many alternatives to Cersei there were at the time…there’s no Arryns,

In terms of the political effects…there are going to be quite a few Aerys loyalists who will run a rumor campaign that blame Tywin and Rhaegar for killing Aerys. I don’t think it’ll be given much credence by most (Rhaegar was quite popular among the smallfolk)…until something goes wrong and then people will start to whisper.

There’s definitely going to be tension between Tywin’s faction and Rhaegar’s faction (Connington, Lonmouth, Mooton, the Daynes and the Whents) over access to offices. Rhaegar’s going to want his own men around him, and Tywin’s going to want jobs for Tygett and Gerion and Kevan and Illyn Payne and the like. And I would argue this tension would expand as other Houses get tired of Tywin’s monopoly on royal power – the Tyrells, the Martells, the Southron Ambitions bloc, these folks want their fair share of honors and offices and if they feel like A. Tywin’s never going to leave and B. he won’t share, you’re going to get some “evil councilors” politics brewing fast.

How common we’re war hammers and axes in the Middle Ages? I feel they’re over represented in fantasy

Answered here.

Warhammers and axes weren’t uncommon, especially during the Late Middle Ages once armor got good enough that you couldn’t easily cut through it with a sword. In that situation, a warhammer or axe were really good at concentrating force to a point, hopefully smashing through their armor, but if not definitely knocking them down so that you could put one of these through a weak point:

That’s not to say that people stopped using swords – there’s a whole bunch of rather clever folks who’ve gone back to arming manuals to rediscover how people used half-swording and other techniques to deal with opponents in plate – but those techniques were rather advanced and involved. It’s a lot simpler and easier to grab an axe or a hammer and smack someone in the head until they fall down.

Your analysis of the feudal structure in the 7K is fascinating, but I am curious as to the agricultural economy of Terros, particularly in Essos. To feed a city the size of Volantis (well, 3-5 cities including colonies) you would need either a very productive agricultural structure or vast wealth to buy that food from elsewhere. The same is true of Braavos, and you can’t just rely on fishing to provide that! So: either these cities also have far more advanced agricultural systems than (1/2)

(2/2) Westeros seems to, or someone somewhere is producing an outrageous quantity of food. Given the geography of the Free Cities, I can’t help but think that a) the Disputed Lands were unquestionably very fertile and productive; b) Pentos’ lands were extremely valuable; c) Braavos’ coastline was more important than previously implied; and d) the banks of the Rhoyne were highly lucrative. What at your opinions? Thanks!

Excellent question! Yeah, the agricultural economy is absolutely fundamental to the broader political economy of Terros.

Volantis’ vast Rhoynish hinterland – Volon Therys, Valysar, and Selhorys, etc. -seems eminently capable of feeding the metropole through organization into latifundia. It seems that cold beet soup, i.e borscht, is a staple of the Volantene diet, and as any number of central and eastern european peasantries can tell you, you can feed a lot of serfs on borscht.

I’m somewhat skeptical as to how much food the Braavosi coastline can produce, but I imagine they produce some because you can’t rely entirely on imports from Westeros given the vagarities of sea transportation.

I am also of the belief that the Disputed Lands are fertile.

Given how you are Team Smallfolk 4 Life, how come you are Pro-Blackfyre in your essays. The blackfyres are representative of the Warrior Caste of Westeros and to a man are aristocratic snobs who opposed reform initiatives put forth by Daeron and resented the presence of philanthropic Dornishmen on the court?

It’s a fair cop, guv; I find the Blackfyres interesting in much the same reason that I find the Brackens interesting – they’re the unloved losers of historical conflicts and I’m curious as to what motivated them.

But I do want to push back on something: Daeron and Co. were not on Team Smallfolk.

Were there women in Daeron’s court? Yes, noblewomen. Were there Dornishmen? Yes, highborn Dornishmen. Did any of them care or understand about the smallfolk in the slightest regard? Ask Tansell Too-Tall.

To the extent that Daeron was a reformer, he was an elite reformer focused on questions of efficiency and honesty in administration, and the project of peacefully unifying Dorne under Targaryen rule. He was not Aegon V.

Anon Asks:

Why is slavery illegal in Westeros? We know that the northerners hate it. But why should it so hated as to demand execution?

Good question!

One quick correction: both northerners and southerners hate slavery; it’s one of those few true universal taboos in Westerosi culture, like kinslaying or guest-right or oath-breaking.

I do think there are different cultural reasons for the shared belief, however. In the case of the South, I think it’s a combination of the Seven’s “all souls are children of the Seven” kind of ideology and the memory of the Valyrian Empire and the need to flee Andalos to avoid being enslaved. In the case of the North, I think it’s a kind of deep ancestral memory of the White Walkers and their drive to turn all that lives into their zombie slave army.

Is it knightly protocol to return important weapons to the heirs of their owners (as Ned does with Dawn, and the Lannisters obviously do not do with Ice?). One has to imagine this is part of the reason why these sword stay with a family for centuries. Is there anything equivalent in history, or do the precedents belong more to legend (Excalibur and the like)?

Ooh boy, this goes into some tricky areas where Martin is just not very consistent about Valyrian swords, because there are arguments that go either way: House Corbray lost Lady Forlorn to Robar II Royce and then supposedly got it back after the Battle of Seven Stars, which points one way, but Gwayne Corbray died on Redgrass and the sword somehow got back to the family (possibly because the loyalists retained the field and Daemon forbade looting of his honorable foe?).On the other hand, plenty of Valyrian swords were acquired by the ancient right of Acquiris Quodcumquae Rapis. The Harlaw blade Nightfall was won in battle, Red Rain was stolen by Hilmar “the Cunning” Drumm (with the aid of a blackjack), etc.

So I think this is something of a legal/cultural controversy: on the one hand, returning the arms and armor of a worthy opponent is a big part of the Knightly Code; on the other, Valyrian steel swords are literally beyond price and few people are going to have the moral strength to turn one down.

Could English kings actually just legitimize bastards, like in Westeros?

Yes, they could! Although it gets really really weird, in the best dynastic scholarship way.

So, let’s talk English inheritance law! In Saxon England, all sons of a King were titled as “aethelings” and were eligible to inherit regardless of their legitimacy. The Papacy was not a huge fan of this, being rather a big proponent of the idea that Christian marriages should be important to monarchs and future monarchs, and tried to outlaw the practice, not always successfully. King Aethelstan (924-939) was a bastard, as was William of Normandy. But gradually succession through legitimate union took hold, sort of…

For a while, you had something of a mixed case, where royal bastards were given the last name of Fitzroy (son of the king) and wore royal coat of arms marked with a bend or bar to distinguish them – as we see above. Especially in the reign of Henry I, there were about 21-25 Fitzroys running around who were very very powerful people with Earldoms and Dukedoms, and while they weren’t guaranteed a place in line, they could sometimes have one. Robert Fitzroy Earl of Gloucester was a potential claimant for the English throne during the Anarchy, although he ultimately ended up backing Empress Maude over King Stephen instead.

You then scoot down to one of the weirder bits of dynastic tomfoolery that took place during the Wars of the Roses, and how it is that the Tudors wound up with a claim on the English throne. John of Gaunt, richest and most hated of the sons of Edward III, had a bunch of children with his mistress Katherine Swynford and then married her. The ex-facto results of this union were declared legitimate repeatedly by Kings, Parliament, and Popes, as quid-pro-quo for supporting Richard II, although the condition of legitimacy was that they had to give up their claims to the succession.

When Henry IV usurped the throne from Richard II, and was feeling insecure on his throne, he recinded the titles that had been given to the Beauforts through their legitimation, as a symbolic underlining of the situation, and got the succession re-ordered in Parliament – although to keep them sweet, the Beauforts were given the lands of Owen Glendower, which is where the first Welsh connection comes in. A bit later, Henry VI didn’t have much in the way of close relatives, he did something very odd: he legitimated the Welsh House of Tudors, who decended from his mother’s second marriage to Sir Owen Tudor, in 1452, and then in 1455 married Margaret Beaufort to Edmund Tudor, linking the two families

The dynastic chaos of all of this seemed to have left an enduring lesson after the Wars of the Roses. While there would be powerful royal bastards – Henry VIII’s son Henry Fitzroy Duke of Richmond and Somerset, Charles II’s bastard James Fitzroy the Duke of Monmouth – they would never be added to the succession, even if it meant enduring the occasional rebellion (see Monmouth’s Rebellion).

Why on Earth would House Dayne name their future lord after Ned Stark? Not only did Ned (well, technically Howland Reed) kill their most famous family member, but they also seem to hold him responsible for Ashara’s suicide. I can see them collaborating with him to keep R+L=J a secret (possibly out of respect for Ser Arthur’s memory), but how could they ever bring themselves to like him?

Gee, I wonder how tragic deaths might have brought two grieving families together?

Prince
…Capulet! Montague!
See, what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love.
And I for winking at your discords too
Have lost a brace of kinsmen: all are punish’d.
Capulet
O brother Montague, give me thy hand:
This is my daughter’s jointure, for no more
Can I demand.
Montague
But I can give thee more:
For I will raise her statue in pure gold;
That while Verona by that name is known,
There shall no figure at such rate be set
As that of true and faithful Juliet.
Capulet
As rich shall Romeo’s by his lady’s lie;
Poor sacrifices of our enmity!
Prince
A glooming peace this morning with it brings…

(Incidentally, don’t really agree that they blame him for her suicide. It’s more complicated than that.)

Here’s how I think it went down:

Ned and Ashara were lovers at Harrenhal – after all, they’re both young, neither of them are betrothed to anyone, so there’s no dishonor as Harwin tells us. Indeed, Ned may have even asked for Ashara’s hand or been in the process of negotiations for a betrothal – he’s the second son of a Great House, she comes from a Lesser House but an ancient one, no one’s an heir so that’s less of an issue, it’s a good match – when Lyanna disappears and Brandon rides to King’s Landing.
The young couple are divided by civil war – his father and brother have been murdered and his sister’s abducted, he’s running for his life, she’s looking after Elia Martell in dangerous circumstances (although GRRM says she’s not nailed down so perhaps they have time for one more reunion before he gets married), Rhaegar’s missing in scandalous circumstances.
Ashara becomes pregnant and goes home to Starfall for her lying in, except that the civil war and Ned’s forced marriage prevent the child from being born in wedlock. This is much less of an issue in Dorne, remember. She has a stillbirth.
Ashara finds out that her brother is complicit in the abduction and imprisonment of the sister of the man she loves at the orders of the man who humiliated her mistress and provoked the civil war that ruined her life, when Arthur writes home asking for the family to send Wylla to the Tower of Joy because Lyanna is pregnant and needs a midwife for her secret royal baby.
When it’s clear that the war is over, Ashara sends word to Ned where he can find his sister.
The fight at the Tower of Joy happens. Soon after, Ned arrives at Starfell with Dawn, his nephew, and his sister’s body. The combined grief of her stillbirth, her culpability in the death of her brother, and everything else leads Ashara to commit suicide.

At this point, think of the shared grief of the two families. Ned’s lost his father, his brother, his sister (in part because of Arthur), the woman he loves, their child, and almost all of his friends. The Daynes have lost Arthur, Ashara, and Ashara’s child. The mutual recognition of the common tragedy that has befallen them leads to reconciliation.

After all, Ned stays in Starfall for some time, because newborn Jon isn’t about to travel. The family gets to know Ned and move past initial reactions. They see the way that he’s agreed to protect this innocent, helpless child at the expense of his own reputation, and they agree to do the whole coverup with Wylla to shield both Lyanna and the child, but also in a way to preserve the reputation of both Arthur and Ashara.

And so the Daynes remember Ned as a tragic figure, the man who might have become their good-son/brother if it hadn’t been for the war.

I have really enjoyed your thoughts on Thin Places in ASoIaF, and my questions chiefly relate to that concept.1: What evidence do you see that Harrenhal really is cursed, rather than simply being a uniquely difficult to manage fief that tends to bring it’s holders down, it being both enormous, subservient to a Lord Paramount, and also awarded directly by the monarchy. 2: Do you think that dragon fire may be particularly linked to the creation of Thin Places?

1. To be honest, it’s mostly Doylist logic – the law of conservation of narrative detail. Not only did GRRM take the time to write about a curse and a backstory of all of these houses which died out under horrible circumstances, but he also went out of his way in ASOIAF to show lords of Harrenhal dying horribly – Janos Slynt, Vargo Hoat, the Mountain, etc. etc. And it’s something he’s been very consistent about rather than changing his mind.

2. Only to the extent that dragonfire is involved in a concentration of violent death. I admit this theory isn’t perfect – what about all of the battlefields from the Dance or the Field or Fire? – but there’s also places like Hardhome or Asshai or Kadath or Carcossa where dragons don’t seem to be involved but weirdness is there.

Does anyone besides Ned, Howland Reed, and maybe Benjen know about R+L=J? Specifically, has Howland Reed told Meera and Jojen? Do you think Rhaegar told anyone that Lyanna was pregnant other than the three Kingsguard who died at the Tower of Joy? If not, when (if ever) did Rhaegar plan on publicly revealing he had fathered a son with Lyanna?

That’s a good question. Here’s the thing, there’s people who know parts of the story – Howland Reed told his kids about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, so they may well have guessed that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, but I don’t think he told them about the Tower of Joy (it’s possible Jojen saw it in a vision) although they may have put two and two together

Likewise, I’ve always been under the impression that the older folks at House Dayne know, since Ned stayed there with baby Jon until Jon was able to travel and their servant Wylla was Jon’s wetnurse and likely Lyanna’s midwife – after all, Arthur Dayne was the closest to home of any of the knights at the Tower of Joy, and he’s definitely going to send to home for a servant to help with the birthing of a royal child since that’s completely outside his wheelhouse. Also, this always made sense to me as both the simplest and most tragic answer to how Ned knew where to find Lyanna: Ashara Dayne told her lover where to find his sister, and that’s a big part of the reason she took her life.

As for Rhaegar, he may may have told some of his closest confidants like Richard Lonmouth, but I doubt it. And I have no idea how he was planning that particular revelation.