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By Popular Demand: “Who Stole Westeros?”

By Popular Demand: “Who Stole Westeros?”

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Who Stole Westeros? One of the most persistent controversies of fact among fans of A Song of Ice and Fire is the question of whether Robert Baratheon or Petyr Baelish is responsible for the Iron Throne’s bankruptcy. Many leading scholars of our community have tackled the question (including one of the contributors to this volume); it’s a common topic of debate on r/asoiaf and Westeros.org, as…

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Hello! You’ve mentioned in a few places that Essos is more advanced and more urbanized than Westeros. But – though I understand it’s about relevance – 1) there are only so many cities mentioned, practically all of them save Norvos, Qohor & Vaes Dothrak are coastal. Doesn’t that leave most of the HUGE territory of Essos as just rural hinterland or waste (or ruin)? Do we know anything of it other than the disputed lands ? 2) What do we know of its scientific advancement compared w/the Citadel?

Hello!

  1. There’s also the unmentioned cities: “We speak of Nine Free Cities, though across the width of Essos one may find many other Valyrian
    towns, settlements, and outposts, some larger and more populous than Gulltown, White Harbor, or even Lannisport. The distinction that sets the Nine apart is not their size but their origins.”     Essos is so urbanized that cities the size of Lannisport go unnmentioned as unimportant. (Must remember to double-check my Essos population estimates against this.)
  2. Well, Tyrion’s journey down the Rhoyne gave us a sense of the Volantene hinterland, and I’d imagine you’d see similar wrt to the other city-states where room applies.
  3. Here’s what we know: Myr has advanced optics, advanced crossbows (which means a good handle on levers, gears, pullys), “fine woolens, lace, glassworks and tapestries….But Qohor has metalworking on lockdown, Tyrosh has dyemaking and distillation (which suggests chemistry) and competes with Myr on armaments, Lys is a competitor in the tapestries business and has a better chemicals industry than Tyrosh, Norvos is a competitor in the tapestries business, Braavos dominates in finance and is the only place that’s figured out the assembly line and interchangeable parts.” Pretty much all high-valued added manufacturing happens in Essos, as well as a huge amount of commerce in luxury goods (spices, silks, gemstones, exotic animals/skins). Whereas Westeros exports mostly natural resources (food, timber, wool, wine, furs, stone and metal), with a smattering of finished goods (Dornish silks and satins, linen from the Reach, gold and silverware from the Westerlands). So while we don’t know about Essosi higher education (and there’s signs that it must exist), their economies and level of technology are more advanced. So maybe the Essosi go in for applied vs. academic sciences?

Concerning House Manderly: (1)Among the “dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights” they count as vassals, what percentage of them do you imagine fled alongside the Manderlys and how were the rest acquired (Carrot vs Stick)? (2)How did the northern lords react to the meteoric rise of these foreigners, especially after the discovery of silver in their demesne? (3)Given how they got their lands, would the Starks have a disproportionate finger in the Manderly’s silver pie? Thank You, RSAfan.

  1. Most of the knights I think probably started as Manderly household knights and got a promotion as thanks for their continued loyalty during the long trek to the North, as well as folks like Ser Bartimus. The lords I think are mostly Northern houses who washed out as lords of the Wolf’s Den (the Lockes, the Flints, the Slates, the Longs, the Holts, the Ashwoods, etc.) and non-Wolf’s Den locals like the Woolfields (between Ramsgate and the Sheepshead Hills, they seem rather substantial), with a salting of Reach vassals who kept the faith. 
  2. There was definitely some grumbling, but with the direct patronage of the Starks – the Boltons are definitely going to complain but no one wants a Bolton for a neighbor, the Lockes and Woolfields and Flints might bristle (depending on when they were vassalized) but the Lockes and the Flints don’t have much pull at Winterfell after their failures in the Worthless War, the Karstarks and Umbers might complain on general principle but they’re too far from the action, the Dustins would worry about the economic threat, but at the end of the day no one is willing or able to pony up enough cash to replace the Manderlys, which is what the Starks would probably say to anyone who complained directly.
  3. Well, there’s definitely a quid-pro-quo of “build me a castle and a fortified city that no Valeman will ever capture again” and there’s definitely a good chunk of silver flowing upriver, b/c the Manderlys know the Starks’ benevolence was the only thing that kept them alive. As I talked about in my essay, I think Stark-Manderly relations were a mixture of the Manderlys being the mostest loyalest vassals ever while at the same time grabbing for power with both hands as if it might vanish if they looked away, and the Starks keeping the Manderly ambitions in check while still rewarding good service. 

Let’s say that one of Valarr Targaryen’s sons with Kiera of Tyrosh is born healthy instead of being stillborn, and that this son doesn’t later die in the Great Spring Sickness like his father. I would think this prince would be anywhere from an infant to a young child, depending on Valarr’s age and the timeline of the marriage with Kiera. When this child king ascends in 209 do you think Maekar manages to take the regency or does Bloodraven muscle his way in? What are the Blackfyres thinking?

goodqueenaly:

That’s a good question, but I think it’s a more complex one than simply “Maekar vs. Bloodraven”. After all, the last – only – time the Targaryen monarchy had a child on the throne, the regency was the subject of a Great Council decision, and rotated among quite a few individuals over the course of six years. Great lords (those who didn’t perish in the spring, at least) would want in on the regency action, especially with Valarr’s child, as the little prince would be no older than Aegon III when he succeeded, and probably a good deal younger (thus giving his regents a longer play at power). There would undoubtedly be quarrels between Bloodraven and Maekar over the regency and the position as Hand, but given Targaryen regency precedent and the distaste for both prime candidates (sorcerous bastard Bloodraven versus sullen and grim Maekar), I would think there would be an outcry from Westerosi lords about where their place was in ruling for the young prince.

Now, I can’t imagine Bittersteel would have ignored the political chaos in Westeros – a little child on the Iron Throne, his despised half-brother and the anvil of the Redgrass Field fighting with one another and the great lords for control of him, the country in shambles after the Great Spring Sickness. Daemon the Younger would have been about 20, more than capable as a pretender (especially against a mere child), but whether Bittersteel would have trusted dreamy, prophetic Daemon with the role of potential Blackfyre king, I’m not sure.

That would be an amazing scenario! 

One of the things I find quite curious about the post-Spring Sickness era is how little the Great Houses seem involved in royal politics – yes, the Starks and Lannisters are distracted by the Greyjoys, but no way in hell do the Dornish, Valemen, Stormlords, and Riverlords just have no presence. And all of that would feed into the Regency vs. Hand and Maekar vs. Bloodraven politicking: I like the idea of the Stormlords splitting between rival Valarr and Aerys factions; the Dornish theoretically being behind Maekar but not really grokking his vibe (least Dornish Dornishman ever?); the Blackwoods being the only ones who like Bloodraven sincerely, the Brackens supporting Maekar out of spite, and both of them staring daggers at Aegon V over what he did about Pennytree (obvs. the marriage hasn’t happened yet); and the Vale being staunchly pro-Valarr on traditionalist grounds and grudgingly pro-Maekar because Bloodraven is not their sort of chap, dontchewknow.

And of course you have to have Blackfyre shenanigans. I love the idea of Gormon Peake trying to politick his way onto the Council of Regents and the Handship as his ancestor did before him, only to have everyone who’s not a secret Blackfyre loyalist clambering over themselves to find someone else, anyone else. But definitely a lot of spoiler action, where the Blackfyre supporters are trying to divide House Targaryen against itself and prevent any form of united government, all the while loudly complaining about how the Targaryens are weak and Westeros needs a strong warrior king with a magic sword to save them hint hint. 

Could you help me understand why so many people think Drogo was Dany’s Nissa Nissa? She smothers him with a pillow in Dany IX, and in Dany X there is not a single mention of signs of “life” in his body – she’s preparing his truly-dead corpse. When she’s talking with MMD about blood magic, Dany says it’s HER life she wants as payment, and she hates MMD. The eggs then hatch as MMD is dying. Drogo’s body was… there. So where’s Nissa Nissa? Could it be that part of the legend is wrong?

I would not draw a direct line between what happens between Dany VIII and Dany X and the Nissa Nissa story, necessarily. GRRM describes it as a miracle, a sui generis event.  

Because there’s a lot going on:

  • Dany agrees to a blood magic ritual to heal Drogo, and Mirri Maz Duur tells her that “only a death can pay for life.”
  • Dany is taken into the tent where the “shadows whirled,” which Mirri Maz Duur warns her about, saying that “once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them.“
  • Dany’s child is slain by magic. While this could be due to the accidential exposure of Dany to whatever the hell was in that tent, Mirri Maz Duur takes credit and claims that Rhaego’s life was the cost for Drogo’s resurrection: “no, that was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.” Then again, Mirri Maz Duur has been lying to Dany all along specifically to prevent the prophecy of the Stallion Who Mounts the World from coming to pass and to take revenge against Khal Drogo for enslaving her people.
  • Dany conducts a blood magic ritual based on whatever clues she’s gotten from MMD and from some unconscious urging. (Notably, when Dany awakes from her birthing bed, she’s already crawling towards her dragon eggs, with the words of “waking the dragon” ringing in her ears) 
  • This ritual should not have worked on its own. As MMD says, although possibly trying to save her own life, “by itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them…loose me from these bonds and I will help you.”
  • This ritual definiitely involves the sacrifice of Mirri Maz Duur: ““it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life.”
  • This ritual also involves the ritual burning of Khal Drogo’s body and the three dragon eggs with him: “She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs.” Note that Drogon’s egg came from Drogo’s heart.
  • This ritual also definitely involves a great heat as well: “she was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her. She had sensed the truth of it long ago…but the brazier and not been hot enough.” Remember, the sorceries of Old Valyia were “which were woven of blood and fire” (perhaps the words of House Targaryen are a secret riddle as to the source of their power?).
  • Finally, Dany also walks into the fire, bringing with her the blood of the dragon, the blood of Old Valyria. 

Which elements of the ritual were necessary? Which were not? It’s hard to say when you’re talking about something that’s deliberately non-standard, and when the author is deliberately not systematizing magic in order to keep it magical.

What we can say is that this bears little resemblance to Nissa Nissa. Dany didn’t give a damn about Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo was already dead, whether the eggs were alive is difficult to say since they come from Asshai and that place’s relationship with life and death is borked. But certainly MMD didn’t sacrifice herself voluntarily, and it’s hard to say whether Drogo and the eggs count. 

However…Dany might be considered a willing sacrifice. 

Once more, re the White Walkers

Because I am seeing this described entirely incorrectly. It is NOT the case that the White Walkers didn’t harm wildlings – hell, when we see the Army of the Dead described in Sam I, they’re mostly wildlings – only that they didn’t attack them en masse. To quote Tormund:

“They never came in force, if that’s your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ‘Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …’ Tormund turned his face away.

So I checked, and you don’t seem to have covered this in your What-ifs in your Game of Thrones chapter analyses, but there is one scene in Catelyn’s earliest chapters (if not the very first one), in which Catelyn is reflecting after having sex with her husband, that she was still young enough to have another child. I’m curious of the possible ramifications if she had in fact gotten pregnant, provided there’s enough time between GoT and CoK for her to give birth, and how they might differ based

(Catelyn with child what-if, cont.) (2) on what gender the child was. I could easily see the Freys choosing not to kill him/her, and instead raise it to be a pro-Frey Stark. On the other hand, Tywin might have demanded the baby handed over to be raised as a ward of the Lannisters.

If Catelyn got pregnant in Catelyn II of AGOT, she would have given birth roughly around Catelyn I of ACOK. This has some pretty wild ramifications:

  • first and most obviously, she’s not going to Bitterbridge and Storm’s End having just given birth – Robb’s going to send someone else. This has substantial knock-on effects for Brienne of Tarth, which in turn reduces the odds that Jaime will be released.
  • Second, if her child is a boy, the Red Wedding loses a good deal of its political purpose, because the Stark/Tully forces will have a boy king to rally around. 
  • Third, no way in hell Blackfish lets his niece and his king become Lannister prisoners. 

A couple questions about Illyrio. I’m unclear exactly why he is called the cheesemonger, since he seems to deal in far more rarified materials than cheese. And why does he care so much about who rules Westeros? Does it truly benefit him that much to devote some fifteen to twenty years creating a precarious plan to get someone whose ear he can whisper to whenever he wishes on the Iron Throne? The same goes for Varys, for that matter…

Cheesemonger is an insulting title, used by Tywin and people with his prejudices as a way to belittle the magisters of Essos, who by their very existance undermine the strict distinction between nobleman and merchant. Magisters deal in exotic goods, fine manufactured goods (a sign of Essos’s economic and technological superiority), and complicated financial transactions that nobles don’t understand. So treating them like common peddlars like the ones in Westeros creates a sense of the social order restored.

As to why Illyrio cares, I have a theory about that…

While I get why the Rhaegar-marrying-Lyanna-polygamously argument makes sense plotwise, I’m still kind of baffled about how/why Lyanna went along with all of this. Starks kept with the Old Gods who forbade incest, so they kind of had this private internal horror with how the Targaryens conducted themselves from the get-go. And Lyanna is shown by Ned vis-a-vis to have a solid head on her shoulders when it comes to judging peoples’ character. I have a hard time seeing her just mutely obeying.

The Old Gods don’t seem to have banned polygamy necessarily, since we have accounts of pre-Andal Gardener Kings with multiple wives. 

Just saying, is all.