Category: Uncategorized

Steven Xue Asks: Was Tywin really a slaver?

You have criticized Tywin on numerous occasions of “breaking one of the oldest Westerosi taboos” which is slavery. Now I hate to nitpick on this issue because I am no expert in this matter but isn’t what he did in Harrenhal a form of state bondage in a time of war rather than actual slavery? Weren’t the captives at Harrenhal technically POWs? And usually in any war, don’t captured prisoners (whether they are enemy soldiers or civilians) get conscripted into doing forced labor without pay and had few if any rights at all during their time of involuntary servitude? 

I don’t really see a distinction between “state bondage in a time of war” and “actual slavery,” I guess. At the end of the day, it’s still involuntary labor extracted through force and threat of force. 

POW status is usually reserved for enemy soldiers, not civilians, and the taking of large numbers of civilian prisoners is highly unusual. And there really is no precedent for this in previous Westerosi wars – we’ve seen attacks on civilian populations before, but we haven’t seen peasants kidnapped and forced into servitude before. 

The only thing that comes close is “Lord Lymond Hightower, the Sea Lion, who revived the practice of thralldom in Oldtown just long enough to set the ironmen captured during the battle to hard labor strengthening the city’s walls.” But even then, that’s enemy soldiers and temporary. 

How is Harrenhal administered? That is, does it actually owe fealty to Riverrun, or is it sworn directly to the IT? I know it’s physically in the Riverlands, but it seems like there’s a lot of Iron Throne interference regarding who gets the castle, instead of leaving it to Riverrun (i.e. it seems to always be a reward to a family aligned with the crown; the only other examples I can think of, of the IT just giving a castle outside of the Crownlands to someone, were spoils taken from traitors).

againstthesnarksandgrumkins:

poorquentyn:

racefortheironthrone:

razoredge757:

racefortheironthrone:

It’s definitely sworn to the Riverlands, but it’s something of a special case because it used to belong to House Hoare until that line was cut off, Aegon the Conqueror has right of conquest over it, and he started a custom by giving it out as a reward to one of his followers, specifically Dragonstone’s master of arms, Quenton Qoherys. (Although he did give the Tullys of Riverrun the Lord Paramouncy and married them into House Qoherys)

House Qoherys ended with the death-by-gelding of Gargon the Guest in 37AC, who had no legitimate issue due to his preference for the First Night. And thus, it reverted back to the Crown. (House Qoherys = total of 37 years)

A few years later, Maegor gave it to Lucas Harroway (who had probably previously been the Lord of Harroway’s Town), who held it only until 44AC when Maegor had all of House Harroway executed for the crime of Alys’ supposed infidelity. (House Harroway = 2-7 years)

He then gave it to House Towers after a melee that killed 23 knights, including Walton Towers. The Towers’ line didn’t last that long, only going for two generations after Walton, and thus it reverted once again. (House Towers = maybe 60 years?)

Jaehaerys gave it to Lyonel Strong, who shared his learning, despite the scandal of his relative Ser Lucamore’s gelding. The Strongs seem to have held Harrenhal for about thirty years (assuming that 30 years = a generation, they would have gotten it around 100 AC), before they died out due to the fire and Cregan Stark. (House Strong = probably 30 years, but could be more, depending on how long the Towers lived)

Harrenhal then reverted to the Crown for about twenty years, when it was given to Lucas “the Pander” Lothston in 151 AC in exchange for marrying Aegon IV’s mistress (and later allowing said mistress and his daughter to have the grossest threesome of all time with Aegon IV in exchange for the Handship). The Lothstons are the longest-running owners of Harrenhal, possibly because they steered into the curse: Lucas survived until at least 178. He was succeeded by Manfryd o’ the Black Hood. (My theory about that name is that Manfryd had a sideline as a “mystery knight” who wore a black hood, and did some really nasty things while in disguise) Manfryd’s heir was (probably his son) Manfred, who betrayed Daemon Blackfyre in 196. He died sometime before 211, when Danelle Lothston took over. 

Danelle seems to have been the last of the line – which may be why the rumors of her sorcery all revolve around Bathory-like attempts to extend her youth and life  – and despite her previous loyalty to the Targaryens, was brought down sometime between 221-233 AC when her black magic became public knowledge. I’m guessing towards the end of that range, given that Ben Blackthumb smithed for Lothstons and is still alive in 299. (House Lothston = ~80 years)

For their part in bringing down Danelle Lothston, the Whents were given Harrenhal by Maekar I, and lasted ~70 years. Might have lasted longer, but Shella’s four sons all died before her, as did her husband. (House Whent = ~70 years) 

And then it reverted to the Crown again, and then was given to the Slynts, who lasted all of three months, and then to the Baelishes. 

Damn. This place is no good.

It is very bad, indeed. Hence my argument that it’s one of the Thin Places in Planetos.

Harrenhal is hungry. 

There’s also a mysterious “Bastard of Harrenhal” who Ser Arlan bested in a tilt once.  And “Ser Manfred” and “Manfryd o’ the Black Hood” might just be the same guy.  It’s hard to be sure .

They could be the same people, but there’s a good 45 year gap between Lucas getting Harrenhal and the Blackfyre Rebellion, so there’s easily a space for a generation in there. 

Thoughts on GoT 6×4:

Below the cut as per usual:

Castle Black:

– Loved pretty much everything here. Jon and Sansa’s reunion was incredibly heartwarming, it was great to see Sansa being the political mind behind Jon’s warrior. 

– Brienne being a dick to Davos and Melisandre wasn’t cool. Tormund trying to seduce her with his sensual eating habits was amazing. 

– I like that we really got a sense from this episode where the Northern plot is going, and a sense of narrative momentum. Good. 

The Vale:

– teenaged Robin Arryn is bigger, but just as nuts.

– watching Littlefinger run rings around Bronze Yohn Royce was the most impressive he’s been in seasons.

Meereen:

– Well, I feel more vindicated on my Meereen-is-Reconstruction argument now. Good to see Missandei and Grey Worm having political opinions on slavery and pushing back against Tyrion’s privileged bullshit while Tyrion still had a general point. Still would have worked better if Meereen was actually being besieged. 

Vaes Dothrak:

– oy vey. Daario and Jorah’s scenes were painfully bad.

– this show is making threats of rape against Dany cliched and trite, and that’s fucked up.

– final sequence would have worked a lot better with a 40 foot dragon towering behind Dany.

King’s Landing:

– as with Castle Black, definitely got a good sense of narrative momentum, with Cersei burying the hatchet with the Queen of Thorns and planning to take out the High Septon. 

– Jonathan Pryce is an amazing actor as always, but I feel like his scene with Margaery was lacking in motivation for him. What is he trying to get from Margaery? Just informing on her brother? Not enough to justify this much screen time. 

Pyke:

– well done, and a very unexpected and heartfelt end to that scene.

Winterfell:

– no scenes in Winterfell again? Weird. 

– joking aside, this shit is also getting cliched. We know Ramsay’s evil, you have shown us this over and over again to the point where it’s not interesting any more. 

– can’t wait to see what GRRM has in mind for Osha that isn’t this.

How would Harrenhal reverting to the crown from 131-151 work, exactly? The crown doesn’t have a standing army able to garrison it. And I can’t imagine they’d let it sit empty for two decades, lest it become a haven for outlaws or get taken over by some up jumped small lord. Would the Tullys be responsible for appointing rotating garrisons? Even then, I can foresee problems, i.e. some commander holding the castle for a few years and then thinking he’s entitled to it.

The Crown owns the land, which means they have the fealty of the knights and men-at-arms that come with the land. The Crown sends out a castellan to collect taxes and so forth. 

This is kinda building off the previous ask about Harrenhal, but what do you think happened to the fiefs of Castamere and Tarbeck Hall after Tywin eliminated their families? It seems like bad precedent for the crown to let Tywin keep them after straight up murdering everyone, but at the same time he seems unlikely to give crucial territory over to the Iron Throne.

Tywin kept their lands. King Jaehaerys II was old and sick, and given that the Crown Prince and Tywin were BFFLs, no one was going to do anything about it.

EDIT: Sick, but not old. 

How is Harrenhal administered? That is, does it actually owe fealty to Riverrun, or is it sworn directly to the IT? I know it’s physically in the Riverlands, but it seems like there’s a lot of Iron Throne interference regarding who gets the castle, instead of leaving it to Riverrun (i.e. it seems to always be a reward to a family aligned with the crown; the only other examples I can think of, of the IT just giving a castle outside of the Crownlands to someone, were spoils taken from traitors).

razoredge757:

racefortheironthrone:

It’s definitely sworn to the Riverlands, but it’s something of a special case because it used to belong to House Hoare until that line was cut off, Aegon the Conqueror has right of conquest over it, and he started a custom by giving it out as a reward to one of his followers, specifically Dragonstone’s master of arms, Quenton Qoherys. (Although he did give the Tullys of Riverrun the Lord Paramouncy and married them into House Qoherys)

House Qoherys ended with the death-by-gelding of Gargon the Guest in 37AC, who had no legitimate issue due to his preference for the First Night. And thus, it reverted back to the Crown. (House Qoherys = total of 37 years)

A few years later, Maegor gave it to Lucas Harroway (who had probably previously been the Lord of Harroway’s Town), who held it only until 44AC when Maegor had all of House Harroway executed for the crime of Alys’ supposed infidelity. (House Harroway = 2-7 years)

He then gave it to House Towers after a melee that killed 23 knights, including Walton Towers. The Towers’ line didn’t last that long, only going for two generations after Walton, and thus it reverted once again. (House Towers = maybe 60 years?)

Jaehaerys gave it to Lyonel Strong, who shared his learning, despite the scandal of his relative Ser Lucamore’s gelding. The Strongs seem to have held Harrenhal for about thirty years (assuming that 30 years = a generation, they would have gotten it around 100 AC), before they died out due to the fire and Cregan Stark. (House Strong = probably 30 years, but could be more, depending on how long the Towers lived)

Harrenhal then reverted to the Crown for about twenty years, when it was given to Lucas “the Pander” Lothston in 151 AC in exchange for marrying Aegon IV’s mistress (and later allowing said mistress and his daughter to have the grossest threesome of all time with Aegon IV in exchange for the Handship). The Lothstons are the longest-running owners of Harrenhal, possibly because they steered into the curse: Lucas survived until at least 178. He was succeeded by Manfryd o’ the Black Hood. (My theory about that name is that Manfryd had a sideline as a “mystery knight” who wore a black hood, and did some really nasty things while in disguise) Manfryd’s heir was (probably his son) Manfred, who betrayed Daemon Blackfyre in 196. He died sometime before 211, when Danelle Lothston took over. 

Danelle seems to have been the last of the line – which may be why the rumors of her sorcery all revolve around Bathory-like attempts to extend her youth and life  – and despite her previous loyalty to the Targaryens, was brought down sometime between 221-233 AC when her black magic became public knowledge. I’m guessing towards the end of that range, given that Ben Blackthumb smithed for Lothstons and is still alive in 299. (House Lothston = ~80 years)

For their part in bringing down Danelle Lothston, the Whents were given Harrenhal by Maekar I, and lasted ~70 years. Might have lasted longer, but Shella’s four sons all died before her, as did her husband. (House Whent = ~70 years) 

And then it reverted to the Crown again, and then was given to the Slynts, who lasted all of three months, and then to the Baelishes. 

Damn. This place is no good.

It is very bad, indeed. Hence my argument that it’s one of the Thin Places in Planetos.

While it’s true that Dornish seem to use throwing spears, does that rule out spearwall tactics ? After all the Unsullied use 3 spears(presumably 1 long+2 thrown) & even in our world the Roman Hastati & Principes of the Camillian era used both the thrusting hasta & throwing javelins. Oberyn seemed to prefer a long spear as well.

That’s true, but I wouldn’t call the Romans spearwall tactics – they far prefered a checkerboard tactic that allowed for superior flexibility compared to the packed-in phalanx.