One year, maybe two. Depends on how the weather goes.
Author: stevenattewell
We know that unified Westeros has a pretty sophisticated royal bureaucracy, given the medieval setting, but I was wondering if you had any guestimates about how many clerks we could be talking about in the capital proper. The Master of Coin needs staff big enough to keep track of the reports and accounts of the gods know how many harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers and wine factors spread over a country the size of a continent.
I would urge some caution as to how sophisticated the Iron Throne’s bureaucracy is. As I’ve written about before, Westeros’ royal government is wildly uneven, with a relatively active fiscal bureaucracy but an almost non-existent judicial bureaucracy.
It’s also not clear how developed the financial bureaucracy is, because there’s a weird cross-fertilization between Littlefinger’s own criminal empire and the royal government. For example, wool and wine “factors” are not civil servants, but private traders who buy and sell on commission. Likewise, tax farmers are generally a sign of weak financial bureaucracies, as they’re essentially privatized tax collectors.
Notably, most of the legit civil servants we see are related to ports: harbormasters, customs sergants, etc. This suggests a bureaucracy largely focused on enforcing and collecting tariffs and excise taxes, which allows you to collect taxes with a much smaller workforce, since you only need to cover ports rather than trying to collect taxes from vast swathes of rural territory. If we go by medieval England, the New Customs Act of 1275 required that each port had to have two collectors and one controller – as Westeros has five cities and about twelve or so towns which are clearly ports, I would guess that you’re talking about 50-100 men across the kingdom.
Youve said before that Nobles were the most vulnerable to shifting economics because their tax revenue was fixed by tradition. Couldn’t they just say that their tax was a fixed percentage instead of a fox amount?
I would emphasize more their rental income than their tax income, but the reality is that both tended to be fixed by tradition. And the problem with unilaterally changing the terms is that peasants could go to law courts to challenge that change and introduce either copies of the manorial court roll that described the terms of the tenure, or even the testimony of the oldest man of the area who could testify that the terms of tenure had been such-and-such since since “time whereof the memory of man runneth not to the contrary,” they could prevail in court.
And the reason that such low-status people might prevail in court is that the whole of feudal society was based on tradition – including the nobles’ feudal contracts and their oaths of loyalty to the sovereign – so introducing innovations threatened the foundational social contract and would bring in other powerful interests on the side of tradition, whether that’s the king and his justices or the church or other noblemen.
I’m a polsci/history student, and have no background whatsoever in literary theory, so could you please explain your occasional references to watsonian and doylist interpretations of x, y, or z refer to? Or refer me to a source that can? Looking it up lead me to a bunch of fandom encyclopedia websites, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but was definitely confusing.
Watsonian explanations/interpretations are premised on how the world is built and the personalities are described, as if we were describing a world that existed separately from the author. Doylist explanations/interpretations are grounded on the intent and needs of the writer in crafting their story and how decisions are made to set up plot, theme, etc.
To give an example, if we’re asking why Varys was kept alive after the Sack of King’s Landing, a Watsonian explanation is that Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn were generally pro-amnesty, Varys was a foreigner and thus didn’t have long-term ties to the Targaryens in the way a Westerosi nobleman would have, and he was good at a dirty job that a lot of nobles wouldn’t necessarily want to hold. A Doylist explanation is that GRRM needed Varys to be alive and to have been associated with the Targaryens for the plot of ASOIAF to work, so he wrote it that way.
What does ring giving king means?
A “ring-giver” is an Anglo-Saxon term for king or overlord. To quote Beowulf:

A ring-giver (or “kenning”) was one who gives arm-rings or neck-rings (also known as torcs) of precious metals to brave warriors to gain and/or reward their service in battle.This is how political and military power worked in the Early Middle Ages: kings build up warbands by giving riches to fighting men, and then go out and conquer and plunder to rebuild their hoards of precious metals, rinse and repeat.
When you run out of precious metals, then you start giving land away, and pretty soon you’ve got feudalism.
Re: peasant land holding. What do you mean that the lord could give peasants land they hold personally within their manor. I thought the whole manor was the lord’s land personally already and peasants served their lord by working the land in exchange of protection
It’s kind of complicated, and it ultimately comes down to the relationship between land and labor forces.
Unless you were literally a slave, and slaves did exist under feudalism although it had mostly died out by the 10-11th century, you didn’t spend 100% of your time working for the lord. Even the lowest serfs, villeins, cottagers, etc. only worked part of the week on lands held by the lord in demesne, and the rest of the time they would work on their own fields which they had been given a lease to as part of the feudal agreement.
You can think of this arrangement as a balance of the needs of the landowner and the needs of the workforce: the lord couldn’t and wouldn’t farm their entire manor themselves, and didn’t need the whole of the manor to provide food for their household and personal servants. At the same time, the number of workers who would be needed to farm the whole manor have to be fed and clothed and housed somehow.
Trying to hold the whole of the manor yourself would mean that you’d need to maintain and manage a large workforce of either slaves or wage workers, which would require large up-front ouflays (slaves have to be bought and then fed and clothed and housed sufficiently to prevent them all dying, wage workers have to be paid enough to buy those things themselves) and a lot of management to ensure that people who had no personal stake in the output of their labor would work more than the bare minimum to avoid beatings or firings (respectively).
And one of the things that the Middle Ages lacked was large amounts of capital and managerial capacity. It was much, much easier for a lord to lease out land to peasants who would then feed, clothe, and house themselves (thus freeing you from the cost of doing it yourself), then collect rent and taxes from them (without having to manage them yourself), while making sure you got enough free labor to do the work on the lands you kept for yourself.
Are you aware of any real world “the throne denies him” moments like Joffrey had when the unnamed but badass knight provoked him after the Blackwater?
Well, the term “real world” is tricky, because there are PLENTY of examples from the chronicles of ungodly kings or lords being struck down by the wroth of God for their actions, although coincidentally this seemed to happen a lot to people who touched church property or got on the wrong side of some powerful churchman.
Whether these things actually happened as chroniclers recorded, or whether the monks who wrote the chroniclers indulged in some propaganda to frighten credulous laymen into toeing the line, is up to the reader.
Medieval peasants and serfs could have differing size land holdings on the same manor. How did they acquire more land such that differences in holdings arose? Cultivate new land? Bribe the lord of the manor for a land grant?
Good question!
There’s a couple ways that that could happen:
- Marrying the neighbors. Dynastic alliances and marriages based on landed dowries wasn’t just for the nobility; very frequently, peasants would seek strategic marriages for their children with their neighbors, which would allow the children to merge the two holdings into one larger farm with better economies of scale.
- Cultivating new land…sort of. It’s not that you could just clear forested land or drain fenland by yourself and get a title on the land via homesteading, because that land probably existed within someone’s demense. More commonly, what you’d have happen is lords or churchmen looking to increase the profitability of their fiefdoms by paying people (often younger sons recruited from either nearby areas or foreign lands) to clear or drain the land in part by offering them tenures on the new land, with usually some sort of tax or rent holiday as additional incentives.
- Redistribution on failure of succession. While people of all social classes were incredibly defensive of their succession rights and would react badly to anyone trying to redistribute land that they felt was their inheritance, there were circumstances in which land tenures would become vacant. For example, if someone died without an heir or were convicted of a felony, under the law of escheat, the tenure reverted back to the lord and could be redistributed. If the heir could not pay their feudal relief (a one-time tax paid by the heir upon inheriting the tenure), the land would also revert back and could be redistributed. Etc.
- Bribing the lord for a land grant. Depending on the size of the lord’s land vis-a-vis the local agricultural labor market, it might be in the interest of a lord to lease out some of the land they held personally, if for example they didn’t have enough serfs to perform the labor for free or there weren’t enough workers in the area to work for wages, relative to the size of the lord’s personal land.
Feudal Manor asker, yes it was a broad question. I’ve found it hard to zero in on specific things with the word limit. What id like your take on is about as much about management and politics as about economic specifics. You mentioned the oppressive taxes/ evasion vicious spiral causing unrest and economic disruption. How would lord, or really any authority escape or mitigate this and create psychological landscape that would allow for long term development and prosperity. The variations of 1/2
2/2 this can pretty easily be seen in history where regions with many of the same qualities and resources either advance and grow in wealth and development or remain stagnant. You had touched on some of this in your regional development pieces, “In Dorne we all band together…”, something like that. I know its very vague and has to do with symbols and emotional stats and so on. Still seems important in relation to how states and so on grow or don’t. Thanks
Ultimately the management of feudal manors was a political process by which relations between lord and peasant were worked out, and it could be a very antagonistic or a more symbiotic one depending on the political skills of both sides (or even mediators like royal judges or local clergymen).
While law and political culture gave lords the upper hand (although not entirely), pushing too hard and too fast would cause unrest and disruption, so a lot of aspects of noble culture were designed to give noblemen the skills necessary to manage their tenants and workforce without provoking resistance: adhering to noblesse oblige was a good way of gaining popular goodwill through symbolic displays of generosity (donating hand-me-downs to the poor, or conspiciously giving alms/tithing at church, etc.), being able to gracefully condescend to your lessers was important to ensure that social interactions between noble and peasant didn’t give rise to contempt or resentment.
On the flip side, peasants had one important trump card that made up for some of their massive disadvantages when it came to legal, political, and sociocultural status: they were the only workforce around. Peasants could use various means of direct action to resist actions of their landlords: they could strike as workers by refusing to labor on the lord’s land, they could strike as tenants by withholding their rent payments, they could get violent (often by setting gathered crops or fixed improvements on fire, or breaking fences and other symbolic violations of noble prerogatives, or beating the crap out of the bailiffs and reeves or burning down the manorial court), or they could turn to the courts. There were quite a few cases where individual peasants and whole village would hire lawyers and sue their landlords, especially in cases where there was a dispute over whether tenants were free peasants or serfs.
But on both sides, there were always important tensions between peace and profit, and between tradition and innovation. To quote myself for a second:
Almost by definition, the major source of income of a noble family is rent income from their lands, and rents were overwhelmingly set by custom and tradition. This meant that most nobles were living on something like a fixed income, which meant they were very vulnerable to changes in prices. Crop failures, rebellious peasants demanding wage increases, competition from foreign countries, all of these things could seriously negatively affect the bottom line.
This meant that attempts to raise rents could be resisted by peasants through the law, pointing to manorial rolls or copies of tenancy agreements (or even the memory of the oldest person around) as proof that their lord was violating their ancient rights. At the same time, there were also examples of lords who went looking for feudal taxes, privileges, or labor that had been previously waived (a strategy that lords could and often did use to decrease tensions), and insisting on enforcing their ancient rights.
So, how do lords pursue economic development in that situation? Well, if one had the capital, one could invest in infrastructure: draining fenland or clearing forest would give the lord additional land that they could now settle with new tenants (and since these were legal blank slates, the lord wasn’t bound by the old terms of service), building mills or other processing industries would create new ways to extract income from one’s tenants and increasing the value-added of the good produced by the manor, investing in new farming techniques on the lord’s land (as opposed to the land that was leased to tenants) would increase the productivity of that land.
In addition to techniques, the most historically significant change a lord could make would be to change what they grew. In the early modern period, with the advent of the commercial revolution, many English landlords shifted from growing traditional cereal crops to pasturing sheep to export their wool to the Netherlands, despite the massive disruption to agricultural labor markets. To quote from Utopia:
But yet this is not only the necessary cause of stealing. There is another, which, as I suppose, is proper and peculiar to you Englishmen alone. What is that, quoth the Cardinal? forsooth my lord (quoth I) your sheep that were wont to be so meek and tame, and so small eaters, now, as I hear say, be become so great devourers and so wild, that they eat up, and swallow down the very men themselves. They consume, destroy, and devour whole fields, houses, and cities. For look in what parts of the realm doth grow the finest and therefore dearest wool, there noblemen and gentlemen, yea and certain abbots, holy men no doubt, not contenting themselves with the yearly revenues and profits, that were wont to grow to their forefathers and predecessors of their lands, nor being content that they live in rest and pleasure nothing profiting, yea much annoying the weal public, leave no ground for tillage, they inclose all into pastures; they throw down houses; they pluck down towns, and leave nothing standing, but only the church to be made a sheep-house.
See, along with the shift to wool exports came a legal movement in the 16th century to enclose the formerly common lands of manors (one of those pesky traditional rights that peasants kept insisting upon) and turning them into the lord’s property. This was so hugely disruptive that it led to riots starting in the mid-16th century, but lords with a sturdy enough backbone and quiet enough conscience were able to bull ahead despite resistance from King, Parliament (from 1489 to 1639) and their own people, so lucrative were the profits.
Could you elaborate on the Feudal/Manorial economy a bit more, especially any specifics you could give on how to managed its well and create economic growth and development. I see a lot of parallels with the economic mishandling and general problems in the US right now to the earlier post. Thought it might shed some useful light. Thanks.
I’m game, but I’d need a bit more specifics as to what aspects of management and growth/development you want to know about, because that’s rather broad.