Author: stevenattewell

Did Robb Stark ever receive the NW’s plea for help? Since the North would be the first hit by threat, you’d think it would be at least as large a concern to him as the IB, but I don’t remember him mentioning if once, even when he’s planning his Northern campaign. I don’t remember Catelyn, Bran, or Theon mentioning them either. What happened?

The letter from Bowen Marsh reaches the south in Tyrion IV (according to the best timeline I have, roughly 11/21/299). Robb leaves Riverrun in Catelyn V (roughly 11/23/299). I think the letter arrives in Riverrun after Robb has already left. 

As for Bran and Theon: Winterfell burned down two months before Bowen sent the letter, so it wouldn’t have been received there. Bran would have been a fugitive and Theon a prisoner when the letter reached the lords of the North. 

not the previous poster

Aren’t R’hllorism and magic fundamentally connected? Every red priest we’ve seen openly practices magic. They also seem to use magic as a selling point for the religion. Melisandre is a true believer, while some of her magic is intentional misdirection, she thinks and does real magic and attributes it to R’hllor. If today high ranking Scientologists came out and started performing real magic and predicting the future and performing miracles, you’d think they’d get a lot of converts from other religions. Like whether the religion is true can’t be proven from the books, but she is in an honest to god magic cult, and that seems like it should be appealing.

Fundamentally? No. 

As I’ve discussed before, there are R’hllorite priests who know non-R’hlloric magic (like Melisandre or Benerro), there are R’hllorite priests who do not know non-R’hlloric magic who do R’hlloric magic (Thoros, Moqorro although he could be in the first camp), and there are people who are not R’hllorite priests and who don’t know non-R’hlloric magic who are able to spontaneously perform magic associated with R’hllor (Beric). 

At the same time, there are plenty of examples of people who use the same kinds of magic without any associations to R’hllor: Dany sees fire-mages and meets shadow-binders in Qohor, there’s Bloodraven, etc.

Moreover, R’hllorism is not the only faith that is associated with magic – the greenseers of the Old Gods, the water-wizards of the Mother Rhoyne, the miracles attributed to the Seven or the Drowned God, the secret association between Valyrian steel, blood magic, and sacrifices to the Black Goat of Qohor, and so forth. 

Hello Steven! Are there any historical examples of nobility “investing” in their peasants? such as buying them flocks of sheep or ox and plows to jump start productivity, like a medieval stimulus package? Whats a way that a lord could “spend money to make money” w/o including banking?

opinions-about-tiaras:

racefortheironthrone:

Interesting question!

Most of the examples that I can remember of nobles investing in their estates are things like draining fenland to create more arable land, building mills to turn grain into flour (thus, climbing the value-added ladder), or building weirs and the like to shape trade. These improvements are more akin to investments to fixed plant or capital goods than investments in the productivity of the labor force.

That’s not to say that lords wouldn’t buy livestock or plows or the like, but they’d usually buy them for their own lands, as those kinds of moveable goods were considered individual property. Indeed, in many cases peasants were required to bring their own plows on those days when they had to perform labor on the lord’s land as part of their feudal service. 

My understanding is that there was a lively debt and credit based economy between the peasantry and artisan classes in order for them all to acquire tools and implements helpful to their respective trades. Not barter per se, more like getting stuff advanced to you on credit.

Like… take Ser Bonifer Hasty promising Clegane’s men hides of land. Most of them didn’t have much personal wealth at all, and so could not outfit a farm or whatever on their own, but “I have a strong back and I have full rights to the productive income of this hide of land” is the sort of thing that could perhaps get them a plowhorse and various farming implements (or forestry implements, or whatever the land is good for) on credit from enterprising tradesmen who are willing to take the risk.

There is some moneylending and the like, certainly, although that’s a separate issue from credit relations between lord and peasant.

As for Clegane’s men, they might try their hand at running their own quite large farms, but more likely they would rent out that land to the actual farmers and live off the rent instead. 

Reading your Anguy question, how much money was 10,000 gold dragoons actually worth? Was it a realistic pot for winning a contest?

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

racefortheironthrone:

See here for my estimates on the value of a gold dragon. 

As for whether it’s a realistic pot, it’s a bit tricky, because medieval tourneys don’t seem to have given out prizes in cash, but instead gave out prizes in jewelry, plate (hence why so many modern sports tournaments have “cups” as trophies), and the like. And without these objects to hand, it’s a bit hard to value how much a “gold vulture” or a “very rich ring” should be valued at, or (given how popular diamonds were in medieval tourneys) how to appraise precious stones in the abstract. 

However, I can say that 10,000 dragons work out to something on the order of 6,000-7,000 English pounds (in 1300 CE pounds, that is), which is far, far bigger than any tourney prize I can find an example of. 

So I think this another example of math being GRRM’s Achilles’ heel. 

Yeah, and Sandor’s 40,000 gold dragon prize for the tourney is insane. (24,000-28,000 English pounds? What in the world could you buy with that? And Anguy spent his all on fancy food and fancy girls? How?)

In comparison, Jaime Lannister believed his own ransom value was 10,000 dragons… yes, the value of Jaime to his father and to the crown was the same amount as the first prize of an archery tourney, the hell GRRM. (Or the hell, Robert.)

And when you compare that to D&E’s value of a fine palfrey stated to be about 7 dragons (twice as much as 3 dragons plus a bunch of silver)… well, either there was a lot of inflation in 100 years, or GRRM really can’t math.

Heck, the fact that 9000 gold pieces, the amount Sandor had on him a year later when he was captured by the Brotherhood, weighs about 180 pounds (80kg or so), makes me really respect the carrying capability of Stranger the warhorse…

Yeah…with that kind of money, you’re either talking about buying large chunks of real estate, multiple ships, or buying your way into a fiefdom (by way of dower, I suppose).

As for Anguy, I imagine that part of it is him living the highest of lives, buying “rounds” on the house for everyone else at Chataya’s, and being robbed blind because he’s a country boy who doesn’t know how much fancy things cost.

Do we know what the actual term for the shadow babies is, or is that the actual name of the magic in question (I’m operating under the assumption that there is more to shadowbinding than this practice alone)? I’ve always been under the impression that “shadow baby” was the term that the fandom collectively settled upon.

Sigh…first draft got eaten by tumblr, so I’ll try again.

The closest thing I can think of to an official term for them is that Melisandre refers to them, obliquely, as shadow sons:

“Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.“ (ASOS) 

At some times, Melisandre suggests that this is the work of R’hllor – “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.” – but I think this is a case of Melisandre propagandizing for her religion by attributing the magic known as shadowbinding to her god. 

To test this, I’ve looked for examples of shadowbinders who lack her religious affiliations doing things that Melisandre does. For example, Bloodraven is accused of using shadow assassins: “A shadow came at his command to strangle brave Prince Valarr’s sons in their mother’s womb.” (Mystery Knight) Now, this is most likely mere slander, but it does suggest that there is enough folk lore about shadow assasins out there that people think it’s a thing that magic can do.

Moreover, there is evidence that Bloodraven does have some knowledge of shadowbinding. In Mystery Knight, he pretty clearly uses shadowbinding to disguise himself as Ser Maynard Plumm:

“Distantly,” confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop-shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair, “though I doubt that His Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour.” Plumm’s cloak was as purple as name, though frayed about the edges and badly dyed. A moonstone brooch big as a hen’s egg fastened it at the shoulder

…Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.

This is almost identical in fashion to the glamour that Melisandre uses to disguise Mance Rayder and Rattleshirt in ADWD: 

Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail…The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. “Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o’ love from Lady Red.”

“The glamor, aye.” In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint click against the stone. “I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman’s kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and every day I don’t. Must I wear the bloody bones as well?” (ADWD)

Melisandre associates these glamors with both R’hllor and shadows: “with whispered words and prayer (emphasis mine), a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak.” By contrast, Bloodraven’s glamor is associated with shadows but not with R’hllor.

Another possible use of shadowbinding is that Quaithe the Shadowbinder appearing as an illusion to Dany: 

“They sleep,“ a woman said. "They all sleep.” The voice was very close. “Even dragons must sleep.”
She is standing over me. “Who’s there?” Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. “What do you want to me?”
“Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” (ASOS)

A woman stood under the persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe that brushed the grass. Beneath the hood, her face seemed hard and shiny. She is wearing a mask, Dany knew, a wooden mask finished in dark red lacquer. “Quaithe? Am I dreaming?” She pinched her ear and winced at the pain. “I dreamt of you on Balerion, when first we came to Astapor.”
“You did not dream. Then or now.” (ADWD)

Now, it’s possible that this is actually a glass candle in action (”the sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles.” (AFFC)), since Quaithe mentions the glass candles but is also associated with shadows.

Hello Steven! Are there any historical examples of nobility “investing” in their peasants? such as buying them flocks of sheep or ox and plows to jump start productivity, like a medieval stimulus package? Whats a way that a lord could “spend money to make money” w/o including banking?

Interesting question!

Most of the examples that I can remember of nobles investing in their estates are things like draining fenland to create more arable land, building mills to turn grain into flour (thus, climbing the value-added ladder), or building weirs and the like to shape trade. These improvements are more akin to investments to fixed plant or capital goods than investments in the productivity of the labor force.

That’s not to say that lords wouldn’t buy livestock or plows or the like, but they’d usually buy them for their own lands, as those kinds of moveable goods were considered individual property. Indeed, in many cases peasants were required to bring their own plows on those days when they had to perform labor on the lord’s land as part of their feudal service. 

Do you know that there’s a pretty nice page for your blog over at tvtropes ?

Yes, it’s very flattering. 

There are a few things I’d like to fix (the YMMV page is a bit out of date in terms of how many essays I’ve done, and the intro on the main page could be cleaned up a bit to capitalize Tower of the Hand and add a link to my Tower of the Hand essays), but I’m not narcissistic enough to edit my own TV tropes page. 

Do you have any thoughts on what happened with Septon Moon and his Poor Fellows (and Lords Oakheart and Rowan with their forces), given the Hightowers joined the Tyrells in declaring for Jaehaerys over Maegor? Also that some of the Faith Militant – Ser Joffrey Doggett and his followers (in alliance with the Tullys) – even supported the young prince against his tyrannical uncle.

Well, eventually the Faith Militant were disbanded as part of Jaehaerys’ peace with the Faith. 

As to the lords who declared for Jaehaerys, no doubt he would have given them a fair measure of royal favor.