Do you think that Wyman Manderly is sincere in claiming that the old customs officers were still loyal to King’s Landing or is he taking the chaos and inexperience of a new administration to consolidate his power in White Harbour with more loyal/less scrupulous appointees?

opinions-about-tiaras:

I have noticed that I think there is, if anything, an overabundance of cynicism towards Westerosi politics, which is to an extent understandable and to an extent a barrier to understanding the people involved. Unless they’re a POV character in the novels, I think there’s a real tendency to view everything through a lens of naked, selfish, calculated power politics. Everyone is out for number one, everyone’s motives are suspect.

And that just isn’t true. In a feudal system, as Steve keeps saying because it is true, all politics are personal, and that means that personal character and beliefs are going to play a big role. There are people not named “Eddard Stark” or “Daenerys Targaryen” or “Davos Seaworth” who are genuinely good people who believe in the social contract and system of reciprocal debts and obligations they’re bound up in, and will work very hard not to just uphold that system but to improve it. They might not think about it that way; I don’t think very many people in Westeros have the same sophisticated, conscious understanding of their politics that someone like Steven or, in-setting, Varys and Littlefinger do.

Wyman Manderly has never behaved as anything less than upright. The only people he’s played false are the Frey’s and the Bolton’s, and let’s be real here: he doesn’t have much of a choice. If he’d gone all Eddard and refused to be party to deception and betrayal from within and regarded his sworn word to be loyal if his son was returned as a binding, legitimate oath the North would be fucked right now. Everything we’ve seen indicates that he’s a good dude. Sometimes people are just good dudes. That happens.

That said:

racefortheironthrone:

Both.

Here’s the thing about our good friend Wyman Manderly: he believes in doing well by doing good and vice-versa. He’s always going to be there for the Starks, and he’d never be so crude to demand to be compensated first…he’s not a Frey after all. Instead, he steps forward as the good vassal in times of need, and then he comes forward with all kinds of helpful suggestions about how he can be even more helpful if he was given all kinds of new offices. And it’s understood that, just as it would be crude to demand payment in advance, it would be rude to deny such a loyal vassal such a minor favor…

But here’s the thing – he’s not lying about any of it, because he doesn’t have to. Of course the royal customs officers who were in place before the War of Five Kings aren’t going to support a rebellion against the Iron Throne, so they need to be replaced. And I’m sure the people who replaced them were loyal to Robb Stark, because Wyman Manderly would have made sure of it. Likewise, establishing a mint or a royal navy are absolutely in Robb Stark’s best interests – but they’re also going to rebound to Wyman Manderly’s benefit by boosting White Harbor’s economy and military power. 

Where things get trickier is the Hornwood Question and what happens when Wyman starts conflating what’s good for House Manderly and what’s good for the North. On the one hand, Wyman was perfectly happy to play the normal Northern political game when it came to the Hornwood lands. But when Ramsay broke the rules and it didn’t look like Rodrik was going to do anything, Wyman didn’t hesitate to occupy the Hornwood lands “for their own protection.” And that’s the kind of thing that can be politically destabilizing, and you get the sense that, as with Garth Greybeard, the Manderlys were not entirely innocent when it came to their feud with the Peakes. 

But…and this is important, they’re still mostly constructive, and as long as their liege lord maintains a firm hand, giving them enough of a return on their good work without giving away the shop, and making sure that the rewards get spread around liberally and the Manderlys are made to play nicely with the others so that jealousy doesn’t give way to feud, they’re a credit to their kingdom.

But when Ramsay broke the rules and it didn’t look like Rodrik was going
to do anything, Wyman didn’t hesitate to occupy the Hornwood lands “for
their own protection.”

I’m not sure Wyman looks as good in that specific situation as he’s being made out to be; my understanding of that timeline is that Rodrik didn’t have time to decide what he was going to do re: events in the east. Ramsay moved on the Hornwood lands, Manderly gets wind of it before Winterfell because of distance and geography, and while he informs Winterfell of what he’s doing he does not wait to see how they respond; he goes in hard after Ramsay before Winterfell could, logistically, even have had a chance to do so. That’s bad form.

But that said… Wyman Manderly is a difficult position, because he has his own lands to protect and a responsibility to his own people. It can be argued that he should have waited for either permission from his liege lord or for the Bolton’s to actually enter his sphere of influence before acting… but standing on the defensive is a great way to find yourself outmaneuvered and destroyed, and Manderly has to be thinking “if the Dreadfort is willing to seize the Hornwood lands they must think they have the means to make good on that somehow. If I wait, I might find an army marching into my own lands, killing my people and driving them from their homes.”

It’s not entirely unreasonable for him to move on the Hornwood lands first in that situation. If it turns out he’s pre-empting Winterfell, it is nothing an apology can’t fix; no harm, no fall. He’ll withdraw peacefully and be full of genuine, fulsome regret. If it turns out he’s right, he’s arranging for the upcoming conflict to take place well away from his own people and own lands.

Agreed. I don’t want to paint Wyman’s actions wrt to the Hornwood lands as underhanded or malicious. He’s following his imperatives in feudal politics and Rodrik is kind of out to lunch and Ramsay is a really bad actor who can’t be dealt with normally. 

It’s more that I’m saying, if that kiind of action becomes a pattern, that’s how you get the situation in the Reach under Garth Greybeard even if everyone involved is well-intentioned.