ok can you please explain to me how cap has the moral and political upper hand in his belief that he, an american soldier wrapped in the american flag who doubles as the public face for american defense, doesn’t have to justify his presence in other nations, doesn’t have to answer to any kind of authority – national or otherwise – and doesn’t have to face any kind of consequence if he leaves the nations he visits devastated, especially considering the us’ already very uncomfortable history with marching into other countries and causing deaths and ruin in the name of peace and freedom?
i mean idk if you’re american or not but the idea that cap can outright ignore the wishes of 117 countries and its people because he Knows What He’s Doing strikes me as arrogant at best and blatantly imperialistic at worst. i mean, cap has reason to mistrust authority, but a group of representatives from 117 countries is way more likely to act in the people’s interest than a group of superpowered people with no legal obligation to actually do the right thing.
correct me if i’m wrong, but the avengers in the mcu appear to be comparable to a type of military branch more than anything else, considering their job (to protect the people) and their access to military
personnel, facilities, equipment, etc. steve in particular is a person with military training, superhuman abilities, access to resources with offensive purposes, and seemingly a lot of legal and political leeway to do what he wants with all of these things.
you don’t get to “plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth” and tell everyone else to move when you are in such a position of power; you have to listen to the people you’re serving. and as far as we’ve seen a lot of civilians – particularly non-western ones – are afraid of cap or see him as a fascist or want him to pay for the damage he and the other avengers have done to their homes.
even the things that are genuinely questionable about the accords – the lack of trial and severity of the prison come to mind – are details that could most likely be negotiated, because un legislations generally are amendable. but it’s pretty obvious that steve opposes oversight and authority over the avengers on principle; i mean aside from the fact that we know very little about the extent to which ross followed the accords – the raft wasn’t even mentioned in them iirc – take his “the safest hands are still our own,” or his “the un are people, they make mistakes.”
incidentally, these quotes also highlight another major flaw in steve’s reasoning: his point of view (and his plant-yourself-like-a-tree philosophy, for that matter) hinges on the assumptions that he is always right and that he will always act in the public interest. you don’t have to go any further than cacw to know that neither are true: he acts in bucky’s interest a majority of the film and some of his decision-making – such as not relaying the knowledge of the leftover winter soldiers or zemo being the vienna bomber to anyone else iirc – causes a lot of trouble that otherwise might’ve been avoided.
i mean i only saw cacw once and it was already over a month ago so it’s possible i misremembered some things but i’d seriously like to know how you came to the conclusion that cap being wrong is absolutely out of the question, like hmu with that logic
That the Avengers need oversight doesn’t change the fact that the oversight proposed was fatally flawed, and would make the situation worse. This, to widen the lens, is an issue I take with many of my fellow liberals: the idea that more gov’t oversight over private actors is an inherent good, without questioning whether that oversight is trustworthy given gov’t corruption and heinous agendas (including unjust wars, racist policing, etc.)
I generally incline toward more gov’t regulation and oversight, but you have to watch the watchmen. Indeed, Watchmen showed us what happens when you do this wrong, and the Sekovia Accords is doing it wrong. You think it’s too dangerous to empower Captain America? Then why in the world are you advocating for empowering Thunderbolt Ross?
Since when are human rights like habeus corpus “details that could most likely be negotiated”?
Right, but that’s not what the conversation in that film was about, was it? Cap didn’t say “okay I don’t like some of the things about this agreement let’s renegotiate this and talk to the Wakandians and discuss what would be acceptable” he said “no I won’t sign this no”. And like, I get it was an action film and they don’t have time for details, but sorry, the way they scripted this, it was a symbol of America saying that he refuses any kind of oversight because HE IS RIGHT and he knows best when he is right. There is never any mention of “not this deal, but some deal would be acceptable”. And answering this ask with “he is right” without any qualifying statements makes me uncomfortable to the nth degree.
(And as for Ross, I’m pretty damn sure there was no mention of him in the Accords. I have no idea how he got there, since he was a US politician and the Accords talked about the UN. Unless the American filmmakers think the US runs the UN or something?)
I think that was definitely a part of what they were talking about – especially when we look at the second conversation he has with Tony in Berlin.
Here’s how I would characterize the through-line of Cap’s position:
Scene with Wanda: “This job…We try to save as many people as we can. Sometimes that doesn’t mean everybody, but, if we can’t find a way
to live with that, next time…maybe nobody can be saved.”
to live with that, next time…maybe nobody can be saved.” I.E, there was unavoidable collateral damage caused when Wanda tried to save not only Cap but a street market packed with people, and while the loss of life should be mourned, it’s not a reason to stop trying to help people.
Scene with Tony in Avengers HQ: “Tony, someone dies on you watch, you don’t give up…We are, for not taking responsibility for our actions. This document just shifts the blame…the world security council [is]…run by people with agendas and agendas change…If we sign these, we surrender our right to choose. What if this Panel sends us somewhere we don’t think we should go. What if it’s somewhere we need to go, and they don’t let us. We may not be perfect, but the safest hands are still our own.” I.E, I don’t trust the World Security Council, an organization which had previously been in charge of SHIELD while it was infiltrated by HYDRA and which had decided to nuke NYC, and I don’t think the Avengers should be made into an arm of the WSC given its previously stated lapses in judgement.
Scene with Natasha in London: “What are we giving up to do it? Sorry, Nat. I can’t sign it.” I.E, I’m retiring because I’m fucked up about Peggy dying. Note, his first move is not what it is in the comics, which is to start up a guerilla organization.
Interstitial: the UN Congress is bombed, instantly the Winter Soldier is blamed, and “we have orders to shoot on sight.” Given that something very very close to this happened to him just previously when HYDRA tried to pin the assassination of Nick Fury on him, Cap is unsurprisingly taken aback when the WSC’s oversight all of the sudden turns into the authority to kill on sight and decides that “I should be the one to bring him in…Because I’m the one least likely to die trying.”
Scene with Natasha in Berlin: having brought Bucky in without Bucky or anyone else getting killed, when Natasha argues that “this is what making things worse looks like,”Cap responds that “at least he’s alive.” Cap basically accepts that he’s going to get arrested for breaking the law, as long as Bucky isn’t going to be summarily executed. Although note at this point that Ross JR mentions that neither they nor Bucky is getting a lawyer, which should be concerning.
Scene with Tony in Berlin:
Team Cap, because a) he’s right b) I’m just more politically inclined toward Steve Rogers and his New Deal America than Tony Stark’s Great Man schtick c) he’s right d) morally, “your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth” > “I didn’t stop because I didn’t want to stop” e) HE’S RIGHT.
Tony: “Hey, you want to see something cool? I pulled something from dad’s archives.It’s, well, timely. FDR signed the Land-Lease bills with these in 1941. Provided support to the allies when they needed most…see, without these, you wouldn’t be here…I don’t wanna see you gone. We need you, Cap. Nothing’s happened that can’t be undone, please… sign. We can make the last 24 hours legit.” I.E, now that Bucky’s ok, can you please sign on?
Cap: “I’m not saying it’s impossible. But there would have to be safeguards.” I.E, now that Bucky is ok, I might be willing to negotiate if my concerns can be solved.
Tony: “Once we put out the PR fire, these documents can be amended.
I filed a motion to have you and Wanda reinstated…She’s confined in a compound currently. Vision’s keeping her company.” I.E, remember this take-it-or-leave-it international compact? I can change it at will. BTW, I’m also running a private indefinite detention system, because I am a control freak.Cap: “Oh God, Tony! Every time. Every time I think you’re seeing things the right way…It’s internment, Tony.” I.E, oh now we’re running internment camps for people with superpowers? I remember how this went down last time, and I am not on board.
And note, even at this point, Cap’s still in the position of retiring until Zemo attacks, he finds out that as far as he knows there’s a half-dozen more Winter Soldiers out there, and we have to do something now.
As far as Ross goes – he’s the one introducing the Accords to the Avengers, he’s the Secretary of State so you’d better bet he was involved in negotiating them, his son is running a WSC detention system in Berlin, and he’s running the Raft where people who violate the Accords are sent to.
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