Remember Darth Vader’s famous “Nooooo”? That was my reaction when I read you endorsing the “Ned and Ashara were in love” idea. Jokes aside, I’d like to hear your reasons for supporting something that goes against my entire idea of Ned’s character in so many ways.

evelynvincible:

racefortheironthrone:

Sure, here are my reasons:

1. It’s clear from the text that Ned was strongly attracted to Ashara Dayne at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Ned’s an honorable man, but he’s someone with sexual passion and romantic desire too. And as neither he nor she was betrothed, their liaison is hardly dishonorable. 

2. I also think it feeds well into the central themes of Ned’s character – especially his being torn between honor and family, between duty and desire – and the overarching themes that GRRM is interested in (the human heart at war with itself). If Ned never felt anything for a woman before Catelyn, we don’t have the kind of conflict that we had in Catelyn’s case. In fact, wrt to the whole “promise me, Ned” thing, if Ned had nothing to do with Ashara Dayne, there’s no reason for her to exist as a red herring when you already have Wylla to perform that function. 

2a. If he did, then we have a better case of those themes at work. Ned was in love with one woman, but honor forced him to marry another. Then his desire to protect his family destroyed the woman he loved, and then poisoned his marriage. 

3. It also creates a nice parallel between Ned and Catelyn – both of them got married for the sake of their families, both of them entered into the marriage while being in love with someone else, and neither of them were in love with or particularly attracted to the other partner initially, and then grew to have more. 

4. I think it also works better to explain Ashara Dayne. If all she is to Ned is one of Brandon’s exes, why does he care about her? Why insist that her name not be mentioned, when he goes to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around? Why have there be rumors or have her in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when Lyanna is really the main point of that story? Likewise, it makes her eventual fate and Ned’s final meeting that much more meaningful – it’s a lot less tragic for her ex’s brother to kill her brother than for her lover to kill her brother. 

5. I also think it works to explain Brandon Stark’s character. It’s one thing for him to be a hot-headed horn-dog who Ned somewhat resents for being daddy’s favorite and having to live Brandon’s life for him. It’s another thing for him to be an emotionally abusive asshole who encourages his brother’s affections for Ashara Dayne only to turn around and immediately seduce her. Why would Ned build a tomb against tradition for the latter?  

I still think Wylla’s name being thrown around is a public cover for R+L=J. Wylla’s identity, whoever she is — wet nurse, noble handmaiden, fisherman’s daughter — is kind of irrelevant. It’s a name to tack onto a story, and the reputation of a common girl no one’s heard of outside the Jon Snow mythos is a very different animal than the reputation of a renowned and well-known daughter of a an ancient and powerful house.

And I still take issue with defining Ashara as Ned’s “brother’s ex,” because I doubt that’s how Ned would have conceptualized her, even if it was the truth. If she was someone he had a crush on, he would still think of her as a woman he himself loved, not just in connection with his brother. 

I would happily agree to disagree on this point. It’s entirely possible that Brandon was emotionally abusive, I simply don’t think the text provides enough information about what happened to say for sure. At the very least, he was selfish and insensitive, though depending on his motives, it’s possible he was abusive.

I am not using “honor” as a catchall for “nice” or “good.” It’s not just “nice” for Ned to build a tomb for Brandon; it’s necessary, if he wants one for Lyanna.
Yes, it’s traditional to build a tomb for his father.
No, it’s not traditional to build a tomb for his brother and sister.
But he wants to build a tomb for his sister, and both his brother and sister are dead. 
How will he justify building a tomb — against tradition — for his sister, but not his brother?
This is what I mean when I talk about building tombs for both being “honorable.” If Ned gave Lyanna a rite usually reserved for Lords and Kings of Winterfell, while snubbing the equally-dead and arguably more deserving Brandon, it would be a scandal.
Brandon was raised his whole life to be Lord of Winterfell, he was gruesomely murdered alongside his father while on a mission to recover Lyanna (who was never seen alive again in the North), and yet Lyanna gets a King’s burial while Brandon is left out in the cold? The North would never stop talking about it. 
Ned would never knowingly choose to let a personal vendetta bring shame onto his house or his reputation. Period. 

Having not ever seen the “Women prefer bad boys” argument in this context, I’ll have to take your word for it that it’s a problem.  
However, I would casually point out that we have it from a few sources that Brandon was popular with the ladies — Barbrey Dustin noted him as a ladies’ man, and Catelyn we know was very taken with him (and initially disappointed by Ned in comparison). We also know from Robert Baratheon’s inquiry about Wylla (“she must have been quite a woman to make Ned Stark forget his honor”) that Ned wasn’t known for his passions.
So if one of the Starks was going to successfully seduce a highborn lady renowned for her beauty, it’s more likely the successful Stark was Brandon.

In the case of the Dayne’s repeating the story that Ashara was involved with Ned: the Dayne in question is once again Edric, who also tells Arya that Wylla the Wet Nurse is Jon’s mother. Wow, Ned must have had a busy time at Harrenhal! Do you suppose he, Ashara, and Wylla had a threesome, or was he seeing them both separately? What do you think the Dayne’s think happened, because after all, it’s one Dayne putting forth both rumors!
The truth is probably closer to being that the Daynes knew Ashara was involved with *a* Stark, and that Ned being the only Stark who ever made it to Starfall, and being the last Stark Ashara saw before her death, confirmed him in legend as the paramour.
Because, yes, it does make a good, dramatic, classic story: the quiet, overlooked brother wins a beautiful woman’s love, but duty takes him from her and she kills herself in grief.
It’s basically a Nicholas Sparks novel which, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, isn’t what GRRM is writing.
In the real world, women help men they’re not in love with all the time, and that help is often misconstrued as romance. It’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Ned was firmly in the “friendzone” when Ashara received Dawn from him, but that public imagination — fueled by tiny things like the single dance they shared together — ran away with itself.

1. Right, Wylla’s a cover story – so narratively, why have two cover stories?
2. It’s absolutely not necessary, and wouldn’t be a scandal. For one thing, “the whole of the North” isn’t invited to take tours of the Stark family crypt. For another, all it would say is that Ned loved Lyanna more than he loved Brandon. As Bran said, “my father loved them so much he had them done.” I don’t think he’d do it if he didn’t.
3. I don’t think it is more likely – Cersei (and probably Lyanna) fell in love/infatuation with Rhaegar despite him not fitting the “bad boy” model, and Robert being much closer to it. Assuming Ashara went for Brandon just because Barbry Dustin and Catelyn did is awfully close to saying all women have the same sexual interests. And honestly, it’s a lot closer to romantic cliche for her to go with the “bad boy.”
4. I think discounting the Daynes as a source of information is bad meta. The Daynes don’t say “a” Stark, they say Ned. They named Edric after him. And they’re the ones who grew up with and lived with Ashara, and would be the most likely to know.
5. And frankly the friendzone is just as much bullshit as “women prefer bad boys.”