Remember Darth Vader’s famous “Nooooo”? That was my reaction when I read you endorsing the “Ned and Ashara were in love” idea. Jokes aside, I’d like to hear your reasons for supporting something that goes against my entire idea of Ned’s character in so many ways.

evelynvincible:

racefortheironthrone:

Sure, here are my reasons:

1. It’s clear from the text that Ned was strongly attracted to Ashara Dayne at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Ned’s an honorable man, but he’s someone with sexual passion and romantic desire too. And as neither he nor she was betrothed, their liaison is hardly dishonorable. 

2. I also think it feeds well into the central themes of Ned’s character – especially his being torn between honor and family, between duty and desire – and the overarching themes that GRRM is interested in (the human heart at war with itself). If Ned never felt anything for a woman before Catelyn, we don’t have the kind of conflict that we had in Catelyn’s case. In fact, wrt to the whole “promise me, Ned” thing, if Ned had nothing to do with Ashara Dayne, there’s no reason for her to exist as a red herring when you already have Wylla to perform that function. 

2a. If he did, then we have a better case of those themes at work. Ned was in love with one woman, but honor forced him to marry another. Then his desire to protect his family destroyed the woman he loved, and then poisoned his marriage. 

3. It also creates a nice parallel between Ned and Catelyn – both of them got married for the sake of their families, both of them entered into the marriage while being in love with someone else, and neither of them were in love with or particularly attracted to the other partner initially, and then grew to have more. 

4. I think it also works better to explain Ashara Dayne. If all she is to Ned is one of Brandon’s exes, why does he care about her? Why insist that her name not be mentioned, when he goes to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around? Why have there be rumors or have her in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when Lyanna is really the main point of that story? Likewise, it makes her eventual fate and Ned’s final meeting that much more meaningful – it’s a lot less tragic for her ex’s brother to kill her brother than for her lover to kill her brother. 

5. I also think it works to explain Brandon Stark’s character. It’s one thing for him to be a hot-headed horn-dog who Ned somewhat resents for being daddy’s favorite and having to live Brandon’s life for him. It’s another thing for him to be an emotionally abusive asshole who encourages his brother’s affections for Ashara Dayne only to turn around and immediately seduce her. Why would Ned build a tomb against tradition for the latter?  

Because Ashara isn’t a cover story, she’s a rumor. Wylla is the cover story. Ashara is a romanticization, on par with “Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because he loved her” (rather than out of necessity to complete a prophecy).

It is necessary and it would be a scandal. Brandon was in line to be Lord of Winterfell. If he’d died after Rickard, rather than before, he would have been Lord of Winterfell for his last 45 seconds and been entitled to a tomb on his own merits. Lyanna, no matter what, would never have been entitled to a tomb in the crypts.
Brandon was denied the future he was raised for; he was raised to be Lord of Winterfell, he did all the duties he was raised to do — including dying defending the honor of his and Ned’s beloved sister.
Giving Brandon the tomb he would have been entitled to as Lord is significantly less contentious than giving a Lord’s tomb to a sixteen year old girl who would never have been entitled to one otherwise.
Giving one to Lyanna while relegating Brandon to a less presitigious tomb would have been incredibly scandalous, and, yes, people would know. There’s likely an interment ceremony, that would be attended by the surviving Starks, members of the castle staff, maybe other Lords of the North. We know they hire stonemasons to carve the likenesses, we know (from Bran’s comment about the tombs) that the Stark children ask about them — they would have noticed that their aunt was interred their, while their uncle was not. There would have been talk. 
And we have no reason to believe there was enmity between Brandon and Ned. Yes, Ned thinks of Lyanna often, and he may very well have been more affected by her death than Brandon’s, but that isn’t to say he didn’t have a measure of affection or loyalty for his brother. Bran is eight. He is not privy to his father’s private thoughts, and the simple explanation that he loved Brandon and Lyanna both so much might not be the whole truth. 

You don’t think it’s more likely. That’s great, but I never said anything about the “Bad boy” model being correct. You’re constructing straw-men here.
It’s relevant that of the women who we KNOW were involved with Brandon, one confirmed that Brandon was sexually experienced, and the other provided a comparison between Brandon and Ned.
Based on other women’s impressions of the Stark brothers, Brandon is the one who was more likely to have attracted a woman’s attention (handsome, outgoing, boisterous).
Based on the Stark brothers’ established temperaments and personalities, Brandon is more likely than Ned to have completed a seduction over the course of a single tourney.
This is nothing about “bad boys” or “all women having the same taste,” it’s about textual evidence that suggests it would be extremely out of character for Ned to sexually involve himself with someone over such a short period, while such behavior is perfectly in line with what we know about Brandon.

Rhaegar was handsome, sensitive, and in the context of the Tourney, athletically impressive.
Robert, on the other hand, was handsome, but he was also rude, boisterous, and had a reputation as a womanizer all across Westeros, rather than just in the North (Lyanna knew about Robert’s exploits; Catelyn didn’t know about Brandon’s).
There are textually valid reasons Cersei and Lyanna would prefer Rhaegar to Robert, just as there are textually valid reasons Catelyn and Ashara would prefer Brandon to Ned, that have nothing to do with “bad boy” tropes.
Which I shouldn’t even have to say, because you’re the one harping about “bad boys,” not me.

And as far as romantic cliche’s go: falling for the “bad boy” is a cliche in MRA circlejerks about how women never go for Nice Guys. In stories about the male underdog, the male underdog completely winning the love of a woman who seems out of his league is much more common.

Again, the only Dayne we hear this from is Edric, who was born years after the fact, and has his information from his Aunt Allyria, who was engaged to Beric Dondarrion, so given his age, she was likely only a small child when Ashara died. Allyria may recall Ned’s visit to Starfall as coinciding with Ashara’s suicide and have romanticized the story herself. This is not outside the realm of possibility.
You’re treating Edric Dayne like he’s an entirely reliable narrator with absolute authority. He is not. He is twelve years old and repeating gossip from his aunt right alongside the much more widespread story that Jon Snow’s mother was named Wylla — though the jury is still out on who exactly she was.
It seems extremely unlikely that the Official Dayne Party Line is that Ned was involved with both Ashara and Wylla at Harrenhal, and given that Ned is not known for his sexual escapades, people who know him would find it difficult to believe he was involved with both.
Edric could have been named after Ned for any number of reasons, not least of which being that Ned returned their ancestral sword to them after killing Sir Arthur Dayne. He was a notably honorable man, and it seems more likely they commemorated him for than than for being the man who broke Ashara’s heart.

I was using “friendzone” as shorthand for Ashara not reciprocating his interest, but also possibly being fond of him or considering him a friend. It’s pretty clear from the context that I’m not using it pejoratively,  or to suggest that Ashara is in the wrong, or that Ned is somehow being victimized. 
It seems like you’re suggesting their relationship must have been either romantic or hostile — if I don’t think they were in love, then I must think they hated each other. I do not think that’s true. I
 think it’s possible Ned was in love with her, but that Ashara didn’t view him the same way. I think it’s possible that Ned accepted she preferred Brandon, and that her preference would not have poisoned her in his eyes. I also don’t think that Ashara being with Brandon would have ruined his relationship with Brandon.
You’re suggesting that if Ashara was with Brandon, Ned would not have any reason to be defensive of her reputation, not have any reason to care for her, would have forsaken any affection or loyalty he had to his brother, when I do not think that’s at all in line with Ned’s character.
Ned is capable of diplomacy, even with people he does not particularly like, and with people he loves doing things he doesn’t like (see: Robert celebrating the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon). It is not consistent with his character that he would have disowned Brandon and Ashara out of jealousy or spite.

For Ned’s immediate purposes – keep Jon safe – they both work as cover stories. Yet in one case he’s violently emotional and the other he’s not. 

Almost only works in horseshoes and hand grenades. Brandon was not a Lord of Winterfell. As Bran says, Ned was under no obligation to put up a statue of Brandon. The scandal wouldn’t be that Ned didn’t give one to Brandon, but that he gave one to Lyanna, but outside of the Starks themselves, no one mentions the tombs. Hell, the only non-Stark who’s shown the tomb by the Starks is Robert himself and servants. And the Freys.

Sorry, how is it that you’re not arguing Bad Boy, ergo he slept with Ashara? “Brandon was sexually experienced…Brandon is the one who was more likely to have attracted a woman’s attention (handsome, outgoing, boisterous)…Brandon is more likely than Ned to have completed a seduction over the course of a single tourney.” That is Bad Boy logic right there.

As for it being out of Ned’s character, how? We’re told explicitly he was attracted to her, he acted on that attraction, and that it wasn’t dishonorable for him to have slept with her when neither of them were engaged.

Yes, we only hear it from Edric, but he heard it from his family. Who are a hell of a lot closer sources then Ser Barristan or Barbrey Dustin.