Remember Darth Vader’s famous “Nooooo”? That was my reaction when I read you endorsing the “Ned and Ashara were in love” idea. Jokes aside, I’d like to hear your reasons for supporting something that goes against my entire idea of Ned’s character in so many ways.

evelynvincible:

racefortheironthrone:

Sure, here are my reasons:

1. It’s clear from the text that Ned was strongly attracted to Ashara Dayne at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Ned’s an honorable man, but he’s someone with sexual passion and romantic desire too. And as neither he nor she was betrothed, their liaison is hardly dishonorable. 

2. I also think it feeds well into the central themes of Ned’s character – especially his being torn between honor and family, between duty and desire – and the overarching themes that GRRM is interested in (the human heart at war with itself). If Ned never felt anything for a woman before Catelyn, we don’t have the kind of conflict that we had in Catelyn’s case. In fact, wrt to the whole “promise me, Ned” thing, if Ned had nothing to do with Ashara Dayne, there’s no reason for her to exist as a red herring when you already have Wylla to perform that function. 

2a. If he did, then we have a better case of those themes at work. Ned was in love with one woman, but honor forced him to marry another. Then his desire to protect his family destroyed the woman he loved, and then poisoned his marriage. 

3. It also creates a nice parallel between Ned and Catelyn – both of them got married for the sake of their families, both of them entered into the marriage while being in love with someone else, and neither of them were in love with or particularly attracted to the other partner initially, and then grew to have more. 

4. I think it also works better to explain Ashara Dayne. If all she is to Ned is one of Brandon’s exes, why does he care about her? Why insist that her name not be mentioned, when he goes to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around? Why have there be rumors or have her in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when Lyanna is really the main point of that story? Likewise, it makes her eventual fate and Ned’s final meeting that much more meaningful – it’s a lot less tragic for her ex’s brother to kill her brother than for her lover to kill her brother. 

5. I also think it works to explain Brandon Stark’s character. It’s one thing for him to be a hot-headed horn-dog who Ned somewhat resents for being daddy’s favorite and having to live Brandon’s life for him. It’s another thing for him to be an emotionally abusive asshole who encourages his brother’s affections for Ashara Dayne only to turn around and immediately seduce her. Why would Ned build a tomb against tradition for the latter?  

I’m with you up until point four. 

If Ned was in love with Ashara, his affection for her would not necessarily be diminished by the fact that she spurned him in favor of Brandon, and it’s a bit spurious to claim Ned “[went] to some lengths to ensure that Wylla’s name is spread around.”

We only hear of Wylla twice: once from Robert Baratheon, and once from Edric Dayne. Robert puts forth Wylla as Jon’s mother, and Edric names her a wet nurse, from which Arya speculates that Wylla is Jon’s mother. But there are good reasons Wylla’s name, instead of Ashara’s, would be put forth in both cases.

• Robert Baratheon would likely have known the truth of whether Ned was involved with Ashara; they were best friends,  Ashara was a great beauty, and she’s believed to have given birth to a (presumably stillborn) bastard around the time of Jon’s birth. If there was ANY chance of Ned being the father of Ashara’s child, Robert would know. 
• Edric Dayne was raised at Starfall years after Ashara’s death; he did not hear about Wylla from Ned. Wylla was the official cover story for Jon so that Robert would not discover the truth. And, as stated above, Robert would have known if Ashara Dayne was Ned’s paramour.

As to why Ned would insist Ashara’s name not be mentioned: Some part of it may be that Ned still mourns for Ashara; that he was really into her, and her loss pains him. It also seems likely to me that Ned would want to spare Cat the knowledge that Brandon was philandering with other highborn women so near the date of their marriage. We have no indication that Cat new anything about Brandon’s sexual voracity (as Lyanna did with Robert), and Ned may still want his wife to think well of his brother.

The Laughing Tree story mentions Ashara because its gives us proof that the Starks and Daynes were (more than) friendly, which becomes significant if Ned later has to beg their help concealing Jon’s identity (especially on the heels of killing one of their proudest sons).

And Ashara’s suicide is still plenty tragic for Ned, regardless of whether she reciprocated his feelings. Ned is an honorable man. She’s not just his brother’s ex, she’s someone he loved, who he likely still has no desire to hurt.

Calling Brandon an emotionally abusive asshole who seduced his brother’s crush seems harsh. We know he asked Ashara to dance with Ned, and we have no reason to assume he had ulterior motives at that point.
But we also know that Brandon was more handsome, more outgoing, and more charming than Ned. If Ashara didn’t share Ned’s interest, it’s entirely possible she would have moved in on Brandon. Would it have been insensitive for him to reciprocate? Of course! But Brandon was a horn-dog, and it’s entirely in-character for him to have slept with her if she made her interest known.

Why would Ned have built a tomb for him against tradition? Honor. Brandon was his brother, he wanted to build a tomb for his sister, and he couldn’t very well go against tradition to build a tomb for his sister without doing one for his equally-dead brother. Ned’s an honorable man, and spurning his brother in this context would be ludicrously out of character for him.

We know that historically Ned had a crush on Ashara, but he’s not mourning her the way Robert mourns Lyanna. He barely thinks of Brandon at all. 
I don’t think its unreasonable at all to assume Ned was infatuated with Ashara to some degree, but there’s very little evidence that it was reciprocated, and Ashara’s presence in the story makes equally as much sense, if not more, if the Stark she loved was Brandon.

A couple points:

1. we hear about Wylla from another source than Robert and Edric. We also hear about Wylla from Godric Borrell, the Lord of Sisterton. There’s no explanation for that save Ned Stark spreading the story to make sure that people have a cover story for Jon Snow.
2. Ned’s reaction to Ashara’s name is unusually intense. “That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her.” That’s more than just sparing Catelyn’s feelings, there’s a personal attachment there. 
3. I don’t think it’s emotionally abusive for Brandon to have made a play at Ashara – I think it’s emotionally abusive for Brandon to have first encouraged Ned to make his affections known and then done that. 
4. I don’t think “honor” explains Brandon’s tomb at all.